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Trump announces U.S. military strikes in Syria

See my post above.
Convinced yet?

YES, I am convinced. I wonder why these images were never published in news outlets here?
Too graphic, maybe?
I would think you would want to publish graphic pictures if you are contemplating military action.
 
I see no need for arrogance. Just relay what you know, what your opinion is, etc.

The answer is Yes, I served ( a long time ago, I'm 67 ), but I don't believe in pissing contests about service, as I don't think it matters whether or not I served. A civilian's opinion is jsut as valid as someone who served. Even those closer to the action have differing opinions on this subject.






That's a simplistic answer. As you know, simplistic is not the same as simple, where the former is an attempt to simplify that which, owing to irreducible complexity, cannot be simplified, i.e., what actually occurred is more complicated, but I think the long and short if it will come clear, and, in my view, it's damning for Bush, if you take the time and study this link, though you might interpret it differently:

This link goes into the subject in far more detail than I can ever do here, study it, and the actual declassified CIA report in question is provided, as well.





Yes, it's true many voted for it, which is why I stated that Bush was successful in Bamboozling the Senate. Study the above link for more detailed info.



Don't know the exact number, but it was in the negative, that is certain, towards the end of his term: This from Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED):



Graphs tell the tale in visual terms, so who's gonna wade through all that?

See the FRED graph, above.

The downward trajectory occurred at the end of Bush, and continued into Obama's first year, (when you set a large object in motion, like a flywheel, it will continue and not reverse itself very easily, it takes a monumental effort to change it's direction, so....) after a year or so then Obama turned it around, and jobs started gaining again, and continued throughout his presidency.

First of all I am 71, Served during the Vietnam War, My dad was a Pearl Harbor and my father in law at Normand. Second, it serves no purpose arguning about the Iraq War and the reasons we were there and how it was authorized. You claim Bush lied, Congress had the same intelligence as Bush so yours is a bogus charge. 76 Senators authorized the war and the Senate was controlled by the Democrats. Bill Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998 so rather than blame Bush you need to blame Democrats as well

As for your chart, one more time all those job number increases were AFTER Obama took the numbers down with a stimulus that failed and most of the jobs created were part time for economic reasons. Here is the chart. Why would anyone give Obama credit for huge job gains when the base should have been 146 million when the recession began or 142 when he left office with his shovel ready jobs program in place? Downward trajectory occurred with a Democratic Congress with Obama a member and it was a Congress that had the Obama stimulus ready almost day one. Bush's wasn't passed until July and Reagan's August as neither had total control of the Congress

Your charts are pretty but context matters. Do you know what under employed means? The U-6 rate will tell you how effective the economic policies are and Obama's averaged 13.3% during his 8 year term never getting back to pre recession levels. This is exactly why he lost the House and then the Congress. People working part time because they couldn't find a full time job in that Obama economy weren't going to support Obamanomics

Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey
Original Data Value

Series Id: LNS12032194
Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Employment Level - Part-Time for Economic Reasons, All Industries
Labor force status: Employed
Type of data: Number in thousands
Age: 16 years and over
Hours at work: 1 to 34 hours
Reasons work not as scheduled: Economic reasons
Worker status/schedules: At work part time
Years: 2007 to 2018

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2007 4279 4220 4253 4313 4473 4342 4410 4576 4521 4325 4494 4618
2008 4846 4902 4904 5220 5286 5540 5930 5851 6148 6690 7311 8029
2009 8046 8796 9145 8908 9113 9024 8891 9029 8847 8979 9114 9098
2010 8530 8936 9233 9178 8845 8577 8500 8800 9246 8837 8873 8935
2011 8470 8464 8645 8652 8576 8427 8281 8788 9166 8657 8447 8171
2012 8305 8238 7775 7913 8101 8072 8082 7974 8671 8203 8166 7943
2013 8151 8178 7722 7964 7937 8103 8099 7816 7764 7936 7718 7827

2014 7302 7304 7451 7516 7260 7425 7400 7169 7007 7031 6885 6817
2015 6820 6693 6653 6622 6643 6386 6234 6411 6025 5807 6159 6027
2016 5960 6021 6099 6027 6491 5751 5898 5977 5893 5955 5719 5554
2017 5776 5670 5500 5309 5268 5264 5236 5209 5148 4880 4851 4915
2018 4989 5160
 
Yep, I believe you are in the minority and your hatred has blinded you to reality or is it your true goal to destroy this country because obviously actual results don't matter to radicals.

I know long look at it is just hatred. It is partisan driven hysteria at a very unhealthy level.
 
he is less competent than any war time president. he's also less competent than most internet posters. read his twitter feed.

Yawn.....


and you see this changing when?





That depends largely on how long Russia's leadership is deranged enough to prop up Assad....who uses chemical weapons against his own population. Whether you like Trump or not, after the raid on Syria, he made a very clear statement. "“The nations of the world can be judged by the friends they keep.” ... You shouldn't be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!". There is no moral equivalency between dictators like Putin and democratic nations like the USA, UK, and France. At some point, Russia is going to have to decide whether they want to a modern first world nation or continue sliding back to the pariah they were as the USSR.



i suppose that we'll see if this strategy works.

You are as anti-war as anyone I have ever discussed politics with. While I obviously do not agree with your "no war for any reason" stance, I respect your opinion. However the reason for the United Nations existence was originally sold to the world as am means to prevent world wars and to a point, wars in general. That includes enforcment of the Geneva Conventions. That is what the strike against Syria was all about. Once again, the three nations involved are all permanent members of the UN Security Council. My pointy is, you are either for the Geneva Conventions or not. If they cannot be enforced, then they are meaningless documents. Let's hope the strategy works.
 
Last week Donny's Tweet tipped his hand and allowed the Russians to safety park their assets far far away.

That's called narrowing the scope of the raid to stopping Assad from using chemical weapons. Ofcourse Russia was given a chance to get their ships and major assets out of the line of fire. We are not looking for a shooting war with Russia. And the fact that they moved their assets instead of following up on their belligerent warnings of shooting down our missiles and going after the ships that fired them. I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you can work that out. The raid still made everyone who claims that Trump is a puppet of Putin look hysterically foolish. Or do you think Trump asked Putin for permission to bomb his Syria????
 
...ad the entire Middle East destabilized, without Iraq to be a counterbalance to Iran.

It is silly beyond the imagination for anyone to suggest that the middle east was stable prior to the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps you think the war between Iraq and Iran where millions were killed including child soldiers, and where chemical weapons were used was a stabilizing factor? How about Iraq overrunning Kuwait? Was that a stable mideast?
 
Of course not -- which doesn't support O.F.'s claim that the Syrian attack proves Trump isn't Putin's lap dog.

Any thinking person would accept that if Trump were Putin's lap dog, the raid against Syria would not have occurred.
 
When the hell are we going to learn to stop? Do we have to go completely bankrupt before we let other countries run themselves?

My god, since I was a kid, I have watched us never learn one damn lesson, from Viet Nam til now. Let Syria figure out it's own problems. If we don't, they just end up hating us.

We need to stay the **** out of other countries affairs.

In the meantime, we neglect our own. I'm tired of it.

If we should stay the hell out of other countries affairs, then can I assume that you would be totally on board with not only disbanding the United nations, but tearing up the Geneva Conventions as well? The United Nations is very much about meddling in the affairs of other countries affairs. Mandatory UN resolutions is just one of many examples of that.
 
Anything they wanted to keep and that could be moved in a couple of days they got to keep....we bombed buildings....who cares......

Was that the mission?...Bomb Empty buildings?...Mission accomplished
 
Syria still has chemical weapons.....and will still terrorize their citizens......The world (except Independents I guess) are quite informed of that

If Assad continues to use chemical weapons, he is suicidal.
 
Syria still has chemical weapons.....and will still terrorize their citizens......The world (except Independents I guess) are quite informed of that

As the USUN Ambassador has warned, we will hit them again if they use chemical weapons again. From the link in #661:

The coalition hit the Barzah Research and Development Center outside Damascus with 76 missiles, destroying the facility and setting back Syrian chemical weapons capabilities “for years,” the U.S. military said in an initial assessment.
The second and third targets were part of what the U.S. military described as the Him Shinshar chemical weapons complex outside the city of Homs. The military said the strikes “completely destroyed” the complex’s chemical weapons storage facility and “successfully hit and sustained damage” to the installation’s chemical weapons bunker. . . .
 
Was that the mission?...Bomb Empty buildings?...Mission accomplished

It is really quite sad that there are individuals on the left who so badly want to see the raid as a Trump failure that they/you take the words of the tin pot dictator who attacked his own population with chemical over our own government as well as the governments of the UK and France.
 
As the USUN Ambassador has warned, we will hit them again if they use chemical weapons again. From the link in #661:

The coalition hit the Barzah Research and Development Center outside Damascus with 76 missiles, destroying the facility and setting back Syrian chemical weapons capabilities “for years,” the U.S. military said in an initial assessment.
The second and third targets were part of what the U.S. military described as the Him Shinshar chemical weapons complex outside the city of Homs. The military said the strikes “completely destroyed” the complex’s chemical weapons storage facility and “successfully hit and sustained damage” to the installation’s chemical weapons bunker. . . .

I find it especially hilarious that the left wants us to believe that with a few days warning, all of the nasty stuff as well as all of the research and production equipment can be easily moved. I am betting that none of them have ever stepped into a research lab or weapons production facility.
 
If Assad continues to use chemical weapons, he is suicidal.

It looks like he is getting away with it.......Still most of his atrocities he commits are with his air force.....That should have been hit....Otherwise he will continue to kill civilians
 
I find it especially hilarious that the left wants us to believe that with a few days warning, all of the nasty stuff as well as all of the research and production equipment can be easily moved. I am betting that none of them have ever stepped into a research lab or weapons production facility.

Have you?....Stepped in one?......Have you seen the results of such an attack?...First hand
 
As the USUN Ambassador has warned, we will hit them again if they use chemical weapons again. From the link in #661:

The coalition hit the Barzah Research and Development Center outside Damascus with 76 missiles, destroying the facility and setting back Syrian chemical weapons capabilities “for years,” the U.S. military said in an initial assessment.
The second and third targets were part of what the U.S. military described as the Him Shinshar chemical weapons complex outside the city of Homs. The military said the strikes “completely destroyed” the complex’s chemical weapons storage facility and “successfully hit and sustained damage” to the installation’s chemical weapons bunker. . . .

Jack......We all know what they "hit"....It was what they didn't that many are questioning
 
Hmmmm

Which chemical weapons lab will create the weapons?

The vast majority of civilians have been killed with conventional weapons delivered with air power......Air power that could be taken down if the west choose to
 
Jack......We all know what they "hit"....It was what they didn't that many are questioning

We have decided on a limited role. I am among those who wish we had done more, but the moment for decisive action passed in early 2012 because our leadership was too timid. Now there's nothing to do but enforce an anti-chemical-weapons red line.
 
The vast majority of civilians have been killed with conventional weapons delivered with air power......Air power that could be taken down if the west choose to

Russian aircraft are operating in Syrian airspace. It's too late to shootdown every bandit in the sky.
 
I think that was the closest we came to real peace within the region, but the very fact Sadat was assassinated, proves that anyone who thinks there will be peace in the middle east is deluded...

<SNIPPED IN NEXT POST>

Feel free to enlighten me, if I'm way off base.

You hit on a lot of things here and I have limited space:


We know why matters have developed this way throughout the twentieth century. Sadat's assassination doesn't prove anything. But his assassination was a turning point for Islamists. We can trace Islamist (NOT ISLAMIC MODERNISTS) thought here:

1) Al-Banna - Not militant. Understood that the ulema had failed Islam by allowing Muslim society to weaken, thus opening it up to colonial and imperial subjugation. He also understood that foreign systems (secularism) were too alien for Muslims and this was why Muslim society had begun to crumble. He also understood that foreign systems had much to offer in terms of economy, technology, and philosophy. He appreciated democracy and argued that Islam featured its own a democratic system. He loathed communism. His fix in the 1920s and 1930s was to convince the king that colonial systems needed to be replaced with Islamic ones (orphanages, schools, government), create a proper Islamic state, thus allowing Muslim society to grow again and meet Western society on even ground. He and so many pothers, as they gained political popularity were routinely jailed and tortured.

2) Qutb - Turned militant. Understood everything al-Banna did. However, he understood that local leaders would never adopt local systems and that foreign governments had grown even more dominant. He was also angry that the West dared to try to convince Muslim society that they must adhere to foreign systems of government. After all, it was these "enlightened" governments that started two World Wars. It was these governments that created countries in the Middle East after WWI and exacerbated tribal friction. It was these "enlightened" governments that tossed millions of people into ovens or gassed them. It was these governments that dropped Israel right in the middle of the Palestinian territory. It was these governments that joined with Israel to attack Egypt. Qutb witnessed one Muslim humiliation after another and witnessed one Islamist after another jailed, tortured, and executed for their thoughts (including al-Banna while Qutb was visiting Colorado). Qutb understood that the world had grown very wicked and only a true Islamic state as an example would correct the course. Therefore, in 1964, he called for the creation of a vanguard anywhere to "throw out" the corrupt leaders his prison manifesto and to finally establish an Islamic state anywhere. He also redefined jihad, which had historically been within the domain of the ulema.

3) Faraj - Very militant. By the 1970s, much had happened in the region and most at the instigation of outside forces. Faraj understood everything Qutb did. Jihad had taken on an even newer meaning. Faraj created a splinter group from the Muslim Brotherhood. In his 1981 The Neglected Duty, Faraj concluded that the establishment of an Islamic state meant first to exterminate local infidel leaders and replace them with a complete Islamic order. Extermination was a far cry from Qutb’s message that corrupt leaders should be “thrown out.” It was Faraj' group that assassinated Sadat. For Sadat’s eventual negotiations and peace treaty with Israel in 1979, members of Faraj’s group used hand grenades and AK-47s to kill him in 1981. And like so many other Islamists in the century, even those who were simply political and not militant, Faraj was executed.

Mubarak, having just witnessed the Islamist accomplishments during Iran’s 1979 Islamic Revolution and the murder of his own Egyptian President, recognized an earlier Islamist philosopher who taught al-Banna, Rida, that leaders needed to associate with the culture of their population. Too much secularization in a religious population was dangerous. He began to mix Islamic systems with secular ones to give the impression of Islamism in government. In the mean time, largely beginning with the assassination of Sadat, Egyptian Islamism faced growing fragmentation. Islamism took the form of a protracted war of attrition against the state. Eventually we would see the ISIL/ISIS/IS organization (vanguard) create an absolute perversion of an Islamic state. Qutb would not have approved of what they did. But at the same time we saw the Arab Spring (Islamic Modernist thought). These two competing philosophies are at the heart of what is going on today.
 
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