• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Puerto Rico running out of time as storm season nears

Cardinal said:
I first brought up the Stafford Act and why it's a problem in post 52.

As for the question of Obama, he wouldn't have been able to stop a hurricane so I don't know why you're bringing him up. Are you asking why he didn't fix the ailing power grid? I'm pretty sure that's a Congressional spending issue. And a lot of the country needs a major infrastructure face lift right now.
Click to expand...

Did not Democrats fight against Trumps infrastructure plan? He campaigned on it.
 
Slingshot Bob said:
Did not Democrats fight against Trumps infrastructure plan? He campaigned on it.
Click to expand...

Democrats didn't think the infrastructure bill was enough, but it was Republicans who ultimately killed it.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/27/cornyn-trump-infrastructure-might-not-happen-2018-430097

I'd sure love to blame a President for the infrastructure problems, but at the end of the day it's Congress who has to pass a spending bill that addresses infrastructure.

But even still...an updated electrical grid wouldn't have stopped a Cat 5 hurricane.
 
Slingshot Bob said:
You are replying to me, the fact that you broke it down and said that my post does not address yours (in response to mine) is...weird? That you do it 3 times, just shows deflection.

I guess Trump is to blame for not riding every government official in PR like a 3rd grader on groundation, to think that the PR Government was competent to properly use and distribute aid was his crime.
Click to expand...
That is all he can do. His argument has been torn to shreds up and down.

Their whole situation stems from decades of neglect.
The issue is that we see what happens in a disaster when those systems are not kept up.

Their power grid is 3 generations behind.
No upgrades and some places are almost impossible to get too or get the needed equipment in.
All of that adds onto everything else.

He then pretends that it is trumps fault for not getting decades on neglect fixed in a month.
It is better to just ignore him at this point.
 
ludin said:
That is all he can do. His argument has been torn to shreds up and down.

Their whole situation stems from decades of neglect.
The issue is that we see what happens in a disaster when those systems are not kept up.

Their power grid is 3 generations behind.
Click to expand...

The entire nation's infrastructure is a mess. Our water pipes all need to be replaced, our power grid is a mess and our bridges are falling apart. It's up to Congress to pass a nationwide infrastructure spending bill.

But...wakka wakka! We just passed a $1.5 trillion tax cut! Good luck paying for it!

No upgrades and some places are almost impossible to get too or get the needed equipment in.
All of that adds onto everything else.
Click to expand...

What do you mean, "No upgrade?" That's not a complete thought. Are you referring to how the electrical grid they're building now is identical to the old one? Why do you suppose they're building a replacement grid identical to the old one?

ludin said:
He then pretends that it is trumps fault for not getting decades on neglect fixed in a month.
It is better to just ignore him at this point.
Click to expand...

Sure, Trump gets blame of his own. As do Congressional Republicans, Congressional Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, Greens, Socialists, fascists, PETA, the Aryan Brotherhood, you, me, your neighbor...everybody. For once, blame is a community crap sandwich and we're all taking a bite.
 
Last edited:
Cardinal said:
The entire nation's infrastructure is a mess. Our water pipes all need to be replaced, our power grid is a mess and our bridges are falling apart. It's up to Congress to pass a nationwide infrastructure spending bill.

But...wakka wakka! We just passed a $1.5 trillion tax cut! Good luck paying for it!



What do you mean, "No upgrade?" That's not a complete thought. Are you referring to how the electrical grid they're building now is identical to the old one? Why do you suppose they're building a replacement grid identical to the old one?



Sure, Trump gets blame of his own. As do Congressional Republicans, Congressional Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, Greens, Socialists, fascists, PETA, the Aryan Brotherhood, you, me, your neighbor...everybody. For once, blame is a community crap sandwich and we're all taking a bite.
Click to expand...

I'm not. Not my problem how an Island nation has mismanaged its finances.
Next thing you know, you'll expect 49 states to bail out a state that files for bankruptcy.
 
Barnacle said:
I'm not. Not my problem how an Island nation has mismanaged its finances.
Next thing you know, you'll expect 49 states to bail out a state that files for bankruptcy.
Click to expand...

Your post is probably a much better explanation for why Puerto Rico was neglected than racism. Like you and Ludin, a sizable percentage of the country most likely doesn't even see Puerto Rico as American, so they ignored the hurricane under the assumption that it was just some crap happening to another country.
 
Cardinal said:
Democrats didn't think the infrastructure bill was enough, but it was Republicans who ultimately killed it.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/27/cornyn-trump-infrastructure-might-not-happen-2018-430097

I'd sure love to blame a President for the infrastructure problems, but at the end of the day it's Congress who has to pass a spending bill that addresses infrastructure.

But even still...an updated electrical grid wouldn't have stopped a Cat 5 hurricane.
Click to expand...
Sure would of made recovery quicker. Repair VS total replacement.

I was personaly in the path of Irma 100 miles after landfall, 12 inches of rain, winds around 100 MPH and a tornado 4 blocks from my house, the power was back on in 3 days. Sounded like freight trains running in my yard.

That is the difference.

Linemen from here went to PR.
 
Last edited:
Slingshot Bob said:
Sure would of made recovery quicker. Repair VS total replacement.

I was personaly in the path of Irma 100 miles after landfall, 12 inches of rain, winds around 100 MPH and a tornado 4 blocks from my house, the power was back on in 3 days. Sounded like freight trains running in my yard.

That is the difference.

Linemen from here went to PR.
Click to expand...

Fair point. However, PR is still in a not-unique predicament in that the whole nation needs an infrastructure face lift. And what's particularly tragic is that the Corps is legally obliged to repair the existing grid only to the state that it was in before the hurricane. No, I don't mean that they have to repair it to "just about to fall apart at the slightest gust of wind," but they do have to reconstruct the power grid using outdated equipment. Yes, that's a law. It could be waived or a Congressional resolution could be passed granting PR an exemption, but that didn't happen here.

You would think that you'd get something in return for seeing your island nearly wiped off the map. Like, say, a modern electrical grid that could hold up to future cat 5 hurricanes a little better. Nope, they get the same obsolete grid as before.
 
Actually, a big concrete powerpole a few blocks away was leaning, a creek ran under it and half the road was blocked off as unsafe to drive on, Irma happened 9/10/17 it just got fixed about to months ago.

Was it racism that delayed the repair so very long?
 
Cardinal said:
Fair point. However, PR is still in a not-unique predicament in that the whole nation needs an infrastructure face lift. And what's particularly tragic is that the Corps is legally obliged to repair the existing grid only to the state that it was in before the hurricane. No, I don't mean that they have to repair it to "just about to fall apart at the slightest gust of wind," but they do have to reconstruct the power grid using outdated equipment. Yes, that's a law. It could be waived or a Congressional resolution could be passed granting PR an exemption, but that didn't happen here.

You would think that you'd get something in return for seeing your island nearly wiped off the map. Like, say, a modern electrical grid that could hold up to future cat 5 hurricanes a little better. Nope, they get the same obsolete grid as before.
Click to expand...
From what I read about the Stafford act (a cursory wiki read) it effects us all?

I agree that needs to change.
 
Slingshot Bob said:
From what I read about the Stafford act (a cursory wiki read) it effects us all?

I agree that needs to change.
Click to expand...

I think the Stafford Act was passed to prevent municipalities from thinking they hit the jackpot just because they were hit by a wildfire or a flood. I once broke an ex-girlfriend's car antenna while driving it and of course I said I'd replace it. She immediately started hunting for the most expensive, awesome car antenna money could buy and I was like, "Uh, no, you're getting the same antenna you had before I broke it." So I get the intent of the law. But it's too rigid and there need to be exemptions that address communities that are in high risk regions so we don't have to do this all over again next hurricane season.
 
I am installing double threaded studs into the block around my windows, a masons bit drills a pilot hole, a square driver installs the stud into the block and the metal sheet roof panels are pre drilled to fit the studs, you slap em on and use wing nuts, tool free, takes about 2 minutes a window.

The last thing you want to do when wondering if you will get hit (hurricanes turn on a dime on a seconds notice) is to be out drilling holes in sheet metal and window frames and enlisting help to hang wood or metal 48 hours before the storm. I heard that new construction code requires it.
 
Cardinal said:
I think the Stafford Act was passed to prevent municipalities from thinking they hit the jackpot just because they were hit by a wildfire or a flood. I once broke an ex-girlfriend's car antenna while driving it and of course I said I'd replace it. She immediately started hunting for the most expensive, awesome car antenna money could buy and I was like, "Uh, no, you're getting the same antenna you had before I broke it." So I get the intent of the law. But it's too rigid and there need to be exemptions that address communities that are in high risk regions so we don't have to do this all over again next hurricane season.
Click to expand...
The system and the way disaster funds are doled out, definitely needs some tweeking.
 
Cardinal said:
I think the Stafford Act was passed to prevent municipalities from thinking they hit the jackpot just because they were hit by a wildfire or a flood. I once broke an ex-girlfriend's car antenna while driving it and of course I said I'd replace it. She immediately started hunting for the most expensive, awesome car antenna money could buy and I was like, "Uh, no, you're getting the same antenna you had before I broke it." So I get the intent of the law. But it's too rigid and there need to be exemptions that address communities that are in high risk regions so we don't have to do this all over again next hurricane season.
Click to expand...

You are exactly right. I believe it also goes beyond that -- they didn't want to give communities the incentive to wait for a disaster to make improvements, thinking 'if we get hit, then we'll make improvements'. You want communities to make those investments for themselves, not rely on the federal government to do it for them.

The reason that places like Texas and Florida bounce back so quickly is that they've made those investments. Both areas have strict building codes, especially in coastal areas. Texas, for example, spent billions hardening it's electrical grid after Ike, and Harris County (Houston) has spent billions on flood control and mitigation. They have shelters, staged equipment, redundant communication systems, and contingency plans in place. Houston is even changing these to require all new construction to be 2 feet above the 500 year floodplain. You want communities to make those hard decisions and investments, so that disasters don't have as significant an impact. Contrast that to places like New Orleans with Katrina and Puerto Rico. Both communities knew they were vulnerable, and failed their citizens miserably. We want to encourage cities to be prepared like Houston and Miami, not helpless like New Orleans and San Juan.

The flip side of the Stafford Act is that it allows a framework for the federal government to help communities recover, without waiting for specific legislation. FEMA is able to have a system in place, and communities can know the requirements and be prepared. For example, Houston had an agreement with an audit firm to monitor and report on the massive removal of storm debris. Roads were cleared immediately with municipal crews and contracted help from private companies. You heard very little about this effort because they had a system to follow and a plan in place to do it. The Stafford Act isn't perfect, but it's a great benefit to affected communities.

When it comes to long term investment to spend federal dollars to upgrade infrastructure, we should have a separate debate and legislation -- whether it be upgrading the levees in New Orleans or the water treatment plants in San Juan.
 
Cardinal said:
I think the Stafford Act was passed to prevent municipalities from thinking they hit the jackpot just because they were hit by a wildfire or a flood. I once broke an ex-girlfriend's car antenna while driving it and of course I said I'd replace it. She immediately started hunting for the most expensive, awesome car antenna money could buy and I was like, "Uh, no, you're getting the same antenna you had before I broke it." So I get the intent of the law. But it's too rigid and there need to be exemptions that address communities that are in high risk regions so we don't have to do this all over again next hurricane season.
Click to expand...

It leads to far too much red tape. For example: when a two pipe drainage culvert washes out under a roadway, causing the road to collapse, the requirement for getting FEMA funded (flood damage) repair states that it must be rebuilt exactly as it was - in other words, actually designed to fail again during the next flood. Common sense says that the rebuild should use a three pipe drainage culvert to handle the next storm/flood event without the roadway collapse (saving everyone money). What needs to be done is for FEMA to pay immediately based on a two pipe repair and allow the state/local government pony up the added cost for the third culvert drainage pipe during the improved rebuild.
 
dcsports said:
You are exactly right. I believe it also goes beyond that -- they didn't want to give communities the incentive to wait for a disaster to make improvements, thinking 'if we get hit, then we'll make improvements'. You want communities to make those investments for themselves, not rely on the federal government to do it for them.

The reason that places like Texas and Florida bounce back so quickly is that they've made those investments. Both areas have strict building codes, especially in coastal areas. Texas, for example, spent billions hardening it's electrical grid after Ike, and Harris County (Houston) has spent billions on flood control and mitigation. They have shelters, staged equipment, redundant communication systems, and contingency plans in place. Houston is even changing these to require all new construction to be 2 feet above the 500 year floodplain. You want communities to make those hard decisions and investments, so that disasters don't have as significant an impact. Contrast that to places like New Orleans with Katrina and Puerto Rico. Both communities knew they were vulnerable, and failed their citizens miserably. We want to encourage cities to be prepared like Houston and Miami, not helpless like New Orleans and San Juan.

The flip side of the Stafford Act is that it allows a framework for the federal government to help communities recover, without waiting for specific legislation. FEMA is able to have a system in place, and communities can know the requirements and be prepared. For example, Houston had an agreement with an audit firm to monitor and report on the massive removal of storm debris. Roads were cleared immediately with municipal crews and contracted help from private companies. You heard very little about this effort because they had a system to follow and a plan in place to do it. The Stafford Act isn't perfect, but it's a great benefit to affected communities.

When it comes to long term investment to spend federal dollars to upgrade infrastructure, we should have a separate debate and legislation -- whether it be upgrading the levees in New Orleans or the water treatment plants in San Juan.
Click to expand...

While it's always fun to blame the victim, your post misses a couple key points.

1. Puerto Rico is significantly poorer than Mississippi, which is currently the poorest state in the union. Where is Puerto Rico supposed to get the funds to investment in modern infrastructure?
2. When Mississippi's electrical grid was smashed by Hurricane Katrina, workers and electrical companies came from all over the US to get it up and running as fast as possible.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
It leads to far too much red tape. For example: when a two pipe drainage culvert washes out under a roadway, causing the road to collapse, the requirement for getting FEMA funded (flood damage) repair states that it must be rebuilt exactly as it was - in other words, actually designed to fail again during the next flood. Common sense says that the rebuild should use a three pipe drainage culvert to handle the next storm/flood event without the roadway collapse (saving everyone money). What needs to be done is for FEMA to pay immediately based on a two pipe repair and allow the state/local government pony up the added cost for the third culvert drainage pipe during the improved rebuild.
Click to expand...

That's a great example. Note that FEMA isn't doing the work -- they are paying for it. In this case, the city can have the three pipes installed, request that that the improvement portion be accounted for separately (essentially, the cost of the culvert) and have an better system.
 
Cardinal said:
While it's always fun to blame the victim, your post misses a couple key points.

1. Puerto Rico is significantly poorer than Mississippi, which is currently the poorest state in the union. Where is Puerto Rico supposed to get the funds to investment in modern infrastructure?
2. When Mississippi's electrical grid was smashed by Hurricane Katrina, workers and electrical companies came from all over the US to get it up and running as fast as possible.
Click to expand...

Not 'blaming the victim'. It's about personal accountability, and the state of preparedness.

Mississippi is more accessible, and it's easier to get help there. However, they also have a much better system that they paid for -- despite their economic challenges. It's much easier to re-string lines and make repairs than to replace power plants and electrical substations. With Puerto Rico -- the system was collapsing to begin with, and we are dealing with damage to things other than wiring and connection points. I'd also point out that Puerto Rico DID get help from around the country, including electrical workers. The problem is more one of logistics and fundamental system failures than of manpower.

And again, they can request and debate federal funding for improvements. I'm all for congress doing that. But that's not what FEMA's for.
 
dcsports said:
That's a great example. Note that FEMA isn't doing the work -- they are paying for it. In this case, the city can have the three pipes installed, request that that the improvement portion be accounted for separately (essentially, the cost of the culvert) and have an better system.
Click to expand...

My understanding of the Stafford act is that it doesn't allow for a different system. The resulting reconstructed system has to be the same as the old system. No upgrades or improvements.
 
dcsports said:
Not 'blaming the victim'. It's about personal accountability, and the state of preparedness.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's blaming the victim.

dcsports said:
Mississippi is more accessible, and it's easier to get help there. However, they also have a much better system that they paid for -- despite their economic challenges. It's much easier to re-string lines and make repairs than to replace power plants and electrical substations. With Puerto Rico -- the system was collapsing to begin with, and we are dealing with damage to things other than wiring and connection points. I'd also point out that Puerto Rico DID get help from around the country, including electrical workers. The problem is more one of logistics and fundamental failures than of manpower.

And again, they can request and debate funding for improvements. I'm all for congress doing that. But that's not what FEMA's for.
Click to expand...

And how did the union's poorest state pay for it's more modern power grid?
 
Cardinal said:
My understanding of the Stafford act is that it doesn't allow for a different system. The resulting reconstructed system has to be the same as the old system. No upgrades or improvements.
Click to expand...

I'll bet there's an exception process, and they could certainly ask for improvements in specific legislation. Otherwise, the key thing at this point is to get the island up and running.
 
Cardinal said:
Yes, that's blaming the victim.
Click to expand...

If that's the rallying cry you want to go with. In reality, it's asking people to take accountability for their own actions. The issue isn't even assigning blame. It's their island.

If you had a friend that drives his car into a flooded road, who's responsibility is it to fix the car? It's his car. Insurance might fix it, or pay him the value. He might be upset that there wasn't better signage, or automated barricades, but the city's not going to give him a new car. He might like a truck that can drive through the water, but no one's going to buy it for him. He could ask for help -- and you might give it. But in the end, it's his car -- he is responsible for protecting it.


Cardinal said:
And how did the union's poorest state pay for it's more modern power grid?
Click to expand...

I don't know. In our state, they added a surcharge onto the electric bill for a specific period of time for improvements. Routine maintenance also comes out of the bills. I imagine Mississippi has a similar process.

Look, I'm not saying they don't need help. Not saying that the federal government shouldn't help. Only that it makes sense that this falls outside of the standard disaster recovery process.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
What needs to be done is for FEMA to pay immediately based on a two pipe repair and allow the state/local government pony up the added cost for the third culvert drainage pipe during the improved rebuild.
Click to expand...

Now that makes a whole lot of sense.

Hopefully you are not considering a career in government because I hate to see people disappointed when their qualifications (which match the "posted" job) don't match the "real" job.
 
Cardinal said:
And how did the union's poorest state pay for it's more modern power grid?
Click to expand...

Well, I think that it had something to do with taking tax money from areas that could afford it and transferring it to areas that required it.

NOTE - Do NOT confuse that with "From each according to his ability and to each according to his need." because that's COMMUNISM!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom