Russians indicted in special counsel's probe for operations allegedly supporting Donald Trump...

Thoreau72 said:

I'm not sure your mind recognizes the rape of American constitutional governance brought by your elected officials through the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act, so your post represents likely a delusional statement.

You believe the fantasy constructed by the DNC and Brennan and Clapper, but you cannot see (or do not care about) the rape of the Supreme Law of The Land. :3oops:

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Why do those things pretend to negate the actions of Russia and the refusal of Trump to defend the nation against that foreign attack?

haymarket said:

Why do those things pretend to negate the actions of Russia and the refusal of Trump to defend the nation against that foreign attack?

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The criminal actions of our elected officials do not NEGATE the actions of Russia, they merely provide perspective, if you are capable of perceiving it. A very big "if" it appears.

Other perspective, if you care to view, is the perspective provided by the actions of the US government all around the world, in which we overthrow governments legitimately elected and install our own, from Central and South America to Iran to Russia in 1995.

The hypocrisy evident in all this is rank.

haymarket said:

Why do those things pretend to negate the actions of Russia and the refusal of Trump to defend the nation against that foreign attack?

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What would you have Trump do? Shut down the Internet?

Buzz62 said:

What would you have Trump do? Shut down the Internet?

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Certainly not try to relax the sanctions that already exist, which is what he's trying to do. I also wouldn't be immasculating the State Department, by cutting their budget by 27%. That's exactly what Putin would want. Trump has not even condemned Russia or Putin for doing it. Instead, his entire focus has been on defending himself from any culpability.

What I would suggest is that sanctions be increased; the U.S. engage in counter-cyber warfare. The government should be working with Facebook and Twitter on algorithms that can identify bots and Russian/Ukrainian IP addresses. The federal government should be assisting the states to harden their election system -- of which 20 some odd have already been hacked... and this is from me -- some guy on the internet. I'd think that cyber experts in the field could add to my list.

So you ask, "What would you have Trump do?" DO SOMETHING. Instead, Trump is going nothing -- worse, he's undermining the FBI and the State Dept. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is a traitor doing Putin's bidding.

Thoreau72 said:

The criminal actions of our elected officials do not NEGATE the actions of Russia, they merely provide perspective, if you are capable of perceiving it. A very big "if" it appears.

Other perspective, if you care to view, is the perspective provided by the actions of the US government all around the world, in which we overthrow governments legitimately elected and install our own, from Central and South America to Iran to Russia in 1995.

The hypocrisy evident in all this is rank.

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None of that justifies the Russian actions nor justifies the refusal of Trump to defend the nation against the Russians act of war.

Buzz62 said:

What would you have Trump do? Shut down the Internet?

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Enforce the law passed by Congress for starters.

Direct the departments of the government to make a thorough and complete plan to prevent such Russian from ever occurring again and have it ready for this years elections.

MTAtech said:

Certainly not try to relax the sanctions that already exist, which is what he's trying to do. I also wouldn't be immasculating the State Department, by cutting their budget by 27%. That's exactly what Putin would want. Trump has not even condemned Russia or Putin for doing it. Instead, his entire focus has been on defending himself from any culpability.

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Ya he's trying to save his and his family's skin. Perhaps if the Dems would call off this witch-hunt, he'd have more time for important stuff?

MTAtech said:

What I would suggest is that sanctions be increased; the U.S. engage in counter-cyber warfare. The government should be working with Facebook and Twitter on algorithms that can identify bots and Russian/Ukrainian IP addresses. The federal government should be assisting the states to harden their election system -- of which 20 some odd have already been hacked... and this is from me -- some guy on the internet. I'd think that cyber experts in the field could add to my list.

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And what results do you think tighter sanctions against Russia would accomplish? You do realize Russia is not at the mercy of the World Bank and the IMF...don't you? The governments of the world are in a bit of a 'sticky wicket' with the Internet. Oddly enough...I knew this was coming 20 years ago. Humans cannot be trusted to be civil with a tool as powerful as instantaneous global web communications. They 'weaponize' it. And the USA blazed the trail in this respect. The Russians simply followed suit. And I would suggest that the Cold War is over. The USA and Russia should be banding together to face the real threats of today. If you examine the recent events of the Obama and the Trump admins...hell even the Bush admin, you'd notice that indeed, there is much greater cooperation between the 2 super powers.

MTAtech said:

So you ask, "What would you have Trump do?" DO SOMETHING. Instead, Trump is going nothing -- worse, he's undermining the FBI and the State Dept. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is a traitor doing Putin's bidding.

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The FBI is doing a fine job of undermining itself, thank you very much. They let a kid slip through their fingers, while he bulked up on weapons, told the world what he planned, and then executed his plan. Let's face it...the FBI is a pack of tired old hacks who are incapable of much more than grandstanding.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have no idea what you're talking about. You have an emotional reaction to losing an election, which has blinded you to anything except "Trump Bad". If Trump was a traitor, he'd be under arrest. He is not. And after Hillary-Billary screwed Putin and Russia, I think she got what she deserved. If Putin's laughing, its because he succeeded in destroying that nasty bitch, and has the pleasure of watching millions of butt-hurt morons scream at the moon in frustration...and chase ghosts.

Addressing post #1007 -- it's long past the time anyone can call this a "witch hunt." Administration officials have been indicted. We know conclusively that the Russian interference occurred -- and only recently did he even stop denying that the Russians were culpable.

As for doing his job -- protecting the U.S. from Russians attacking the 2018 election IS HIS JOB!

Buzz62 said:

Ya he's trying to save his and his family's skin. Perhaps if the Dems would call off this witch-hunt, he'd have more time for important stuff?

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So the president is so incompetent, he can't defend himself and his family AND enact the sanctions that congress passed? That is your eccuse? Pathetic.

And what results do you think tighter sanctions against Russia would accomplish? You do realize Russia is not at the mercy of the World Bank and the IMF...don't you? The governments of the world are in a bit of a 'sticky wicket' with the Internet. Oddly enough...I knew this was coming 20 years ago. Humans cannot be trusted to be civil with a tool as powerful as instantaneous global web communications. They 'weaponize' it. And the USA blazed the trail in this respect. The Russians simply followed suit. And I would suggest that the Cold War is over. The USA and Russia should be banding together to face the real threats of today. If you examine the recent events of the Obama and the Trump admins...hell even the Bush admin, you'd notice that indeed, there is much greater cooperation between the 2 super powers.

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So your grand solution to stopping or punishing Russia for their actions is........./drumroll..........DO NOTHING. WOW what a great plan :roll:

The FBI is doing a fine job of undermining itself, thank you very much. They let a kid slip through their fingers, while he bulked up on weapons, told the world what he planned, and then executed his plan. Let's face it...the FBI is a pack of tired old hacks who are incapable of much more than grandstanding.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have no idea what you're talking about. You have an emotional reaction to losing an election, which has blinded you to anything except "Trump Bad". If Trump was a traitor, he'd be under arrest. He is not. And after Hillary-Billary screwed Putin and Russia, I think she got what she deserved. If Putin's laughing, its because he succeeded in destroying that nasty bitch, and has the pleasure of watching millions of butt-hurt morons scream at the moon in frustration...and chase ghosts.

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The reason Trump isn't under arrest is because of his partisan fanboys that would overlook Trump doing ANYTHING bad for the country and in fact excuse it like you are doing now.

haymarket said:

Enforce the law passed by Congress for starters.

Direct the departments of the government to make a thorough and complete plan to prevent such Russian from ever occurring again and have it ready for this years elections.

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Again...economic sanctions against Russia are 'toothless'. Russians are not at the beck and call of the IMF or the World Bank.
And how...exactly...would you propose to prevent anyone from posting crap on the Internet?
Would you advocate a 'Chinese-style' Internet in America? Because that's the only thing that will work.

OK...lets examine this.

Praxas said:

So the president is so incompetent, he can't defend himself and his family AND enact the sanctions that congress passed? That is your eccuse? Pathetic.

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What do you figure sanctions against Russia would accomplish? I mean, other than be an annoyance. I would suggest that if you really think economic sanctions on a nation that has little to nothing to do with the western financial systems would be effective, that you are incompetent. Or at least...uninformed.

Praxas said:

So your grand solution to stopping or punishing Russia for their actions is........./drumroll..........DO NOTHING. WOW what a great plan :roll:

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Yes well...its better to see things for what they are and do nothing about something you can't do anything about, then to run about like chickens with their heads cut off screaming at the moon. See the subtle difference here? Rational Vs. Irrational.

Praxas said:

The reason Trump isn't under arrest is because of his partisan fanboys that would overlook Trump doing ANYTHING bad for the country and in fact excuse it like you are doing now.

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Ya...right...:roll:

About Trump not doing anything about this Russian interference, some points to note:

Mueller conducted a criminal rather than counterintelligence investigation, the difference between these two is that the president MUST be informed of counterintelligence investigations, but does not have to be of criminal investigations. Trump WAS NOT INFORMED of the investigation into Russian interference in the election until Mueller disclosed his latest indictment.

Mueller is operating under the premise Trump cannot be informed of his investigation's progress since Trump is the target, if he reported to Trump on this, the president could cover his tracks and conceal evidence, so Trump had to be kept in the dark on this.

Had Trump been informed of these Russians he probably would have threatened sanctions, summoned the Russian ambassador for a dressing down, complained to Putin, expelled whatever diplomats...

None of the 13 Russians are agents of the Russian government, they're not from the KGB, not spies, they were paid by a restauranteur in St. Petersburg whose only tie to Putin is that he has catered banquets for visiting foreign dignitaries there.

The Russians were paid $1.2 million a month and engaged in their deception for 5-6 months in the US.

Mueller's indictment refers to infantile emails between these Russians describing their pranks, one boasts the FBI is onto him.

Mueller's indictment of these Russians is deflection.

Buzz62 said:

OK...lets examine this.


What do you figure sanctions against Russia would accomplish? I mean, other than be an annoyance. I would suggest that if you really think economic sanctions on a nation that has little to nothing to do with the western financial systems would be effective, that you are incompetent. Or at least...uninformed.


Yes well...its better to see things for what they are and do nothing about something you can't do anything about, then to run about like chickens with their heads cut off screaming at the moon. See the subtle difference here? Rational Vs. Irrational.


Ya...right...:roll:

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Yet again, your entire solution (which isn't a solution) is to let Russia continue what they are doing because YOUR guy is in office and it benefits YOUR guy. Something tells me that if the situation were reversed and Hillary benefited from this you would be screaming to high heavens that the president DO something about it.

So why do you wish to reward Russia for their actions by doing nothing?

Plus Ultra said:

About Trump not doing anything about this Russian interference, some points to note:

Mueller conducted a criminal rather than counterintelligence investigation, the difference between these two is that the president MUST be informed of counterintelligence investigations, but does not have to be of criminal investigations. Trump WAS NOT INFORMED of the investigation into Russian interference in the election until Mueller disclosed his latest indictment.

Mueller is operating under the premise Trump cannot be informed of his investigation's progress since Trump is the target, if he reported to Trump on this, the president could cover his tracks and conceal evidence, so Trump had to be kept in the dark on this.

Had Trump been informed of these Russians he probably would have threatened sanctions, summoned the Russian ambassador for a dressing down, complained to Putin, expelled whatever diplomats...

None of the 13 Russians are agents of the Russian government, they're not from the KGB, not spies, they were paid by a restauranteur in St. Petersburg whose only tie to Putin is that he has catered banquets for visiting foreign dignitaries there.

The Russians were paid $1.2 million a month and engaged in their deception for 5-6 months in the US.

Mueller's indictment refers to infantile emails between these Russians describing their pranks, one boasts the FBI is onto him.

Mueller's indictment of these Russians is deflection.

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Trump has been informed by the intel communities and congress enacted sanctions which Trump refuses to apply. Yes, Trump is doing nothing and rewarding Russia for their help in electing him.

Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

Look how these Leftists become so defensive whenever we bring up that this investigation has nothing to do with justice or doing the right thing, but rather trying to overturn election results. Many of them know that's what this is all about (no matter how ridiculous as it may sound). "Well if they throw Trump out office, then it goes to Pence." Does anyone believe for a second that these people would be honky dory with Pence? I think the Left hates him more because he's a true conservative (along with being a very devout Christian, which they hate even more than conservatism itself). Pence would continue on much of Trump's work, and then some. The Left wants him out as well (if not more so). They want the entire administration gone as a result, and give the presidency to Hillary. The Left will make up a story that the entire Trump campaign was in on this cheating (essentially) that screwed Hillary out of the presidency (even though there's no evidence to support it). The Left still doesn't want to admit that the DNC cheated Crazy Bernie in the primaries, and there is evidence to back that up.

These indictments are just a distraction from what's really happening, but at the same time, this special counsel had to indict someone to appease the Democrat base. So far, it's been a nothing burger. Russians interfering with elections isn't anything new. They've been doing it for a long time, but has never been reported much before 2016. Now, one could make the argument that both McCain and Romney got screwed out of the presidency when running against Obama (especially Romney) because of Russian interference. I wouldn't be surprised to find reports of it. However, like this case, there's no evidence to back it up (like if Obama colluding with the Russians to win his election races, it's not there). But no one on the Left wants to talk about that stuff in the past, and even more so them being buddy-buddy with Russia during Reagan's presidency. In today's world, however, Russia is now an enemy because Trump won. Now, let's cut through the bull crap: The Left still loves how Russian government runs it's country with communism. They just wanted to make them a fall guy so they don't get into any trouble. Although, this golden shower dossier was probably bought and paid for by the Russians (along with the Hillary campaign and Fusion GPS), but it would just further strengthen the conclusion the Russians love trying to make countries miserable.

To finish up, my honest opinion about this whole investigation, it won't end until Trump is gone. It's a political ploy for the Democrats to try and win the House, the Senate, and, if they have enough voters, the White House (which would also make them one step closer in retaking the Supreme Court). That's all this investigation is being used for. If it was a grand slam for the Left right now (taking back all 3 branches of our government), this investigation would have been over a long time ago, nor would it have ever happened if Hillary had won. But since Trump's economy is doing well, the stocks are beginning to rebound, unemployment for everyone in this nation is down at it's lowest levels in decades, and Trump's overall job approval (if true) is very strong, this investigation will continue. The Left are just that big of sore losers. So I'm going to part with the words given to us from the Left when Obama won, but now I want to say to them about Trump: Trump is president now, so DEAL WITH IT!

Praxas said:

Yet again, your entire solution (which isn't a solution) is to let Russia continue what they are doing because YOUR guy is in office and it benefits YOUR guy. Something tells me that if the situation were reversed and Hillary benefited from this you would be screaming to high heavens that the president DO something about it.

So why do you wish to reward Russia for their actions by doing nothing?

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I don't...and I never said that.
I...as a Canuck...don't have a 'guy' in American politics. My 'guy' would be anyone conservative who opposes Trudeau.

You are so focused on anything that might make your president look bad, that you're completely ignoring everything happening outside your own boarders.
Try answering my question. What do you think sanctions would accomplish?

Buzz62 said:

Again...economic sanctions against Russia are 'toothless'. Russians are not at the beck and call of the IMF or the World Bank.
And how...exactly...would you propose to prevent anyone from posting crap on the Internet?
Would you advocate a 'Chinese-style' Internet in America? Because that's the only thing that will work.

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Those sanctions seemed to have enough "teeth" that Russia was meeting with Flynn on how soon they could be lifted. Russia was also meeting with Trump Jr., and the topic was sanctions. So, they must be rather important to Russia.

Your defense of Russia is what I would expect from a Russian troll, not a serious DP poster.

MTAtech said:

Those sanctions seemed to have enough "teeth" that Russia was meeting with Flynn on how soon they could be lifted. Russia was also meeting with Trump Jr., and the topic was sanctions. So, they must be rather important to Russia.

Your defense of Russia is what I would expect from a Russian troll, not a serious DP poster.

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Sure they had a meeting. Probably to discuss the artificial deflation of oil prices, which is the only way any 'sanctions' can effect Russia.
Other than that...bubkus. Russia snubbed the IMF and the World Bank. THAT'S why he's being demonized right now.
ADDITION:
More to this...perhaps the Russians wanted to let Trump know that they intended to take all the money Hillary-Billary gave them to screw him...and turn it all on Hillary-Billary. And I'm pretty sure that if such a conversation ever happened, Flynn and Jr would have laughed and said something like..."it is a free Internet".

Ya...I'm a Russian troll...:roll: And you're what...a LaLa Land inhabitant?

Buzz62 said:

Again...economic sanctions against Russia are 'toothless'. Russians are not at the beck and call of the IMF or the World Bank.
And how...exactly...would you propose to prevent anyone from posting crap on the Internet?
Would you advocate a 'Chinese-style' Internet in America? Because that's the only thing that will work.

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At this point we know that Trump doing nothing will not protect us. He should have approached this as priority number one from his first day in office and mobilized every department under him to submit ideas how this could be dealt with. But that never happened.

Congress voted overwhelmingly for the sanctions and Trump should enforce that law. And his refusal to do so should have mobilized Congress to launch an investigation into why he refuses to do so. But they won't do that either.

Quite a bizarre set of posts. We have Americans not troubled at all that Russia hacked the election for the benefit of one side and will do it again.

Worth stepping back to think about where America is now. The White House is occupied by a man who lost the popular vote and probably wouldn't have won the electoral vote without support from a hostile foreign power; this man is in clear violation of his oath of office but he can't be held accountable because one entire political party (and many of their supporters) doesn't care about any of this as long as it gets to cut taxes on the wealthy. This party may retain its hold in the next election even if it loses the popular vote by 7-8% because a twisted, gerrymandered system effectively disenfranchises tens of millions of Americas.

Isn't it great living in the world's greatest democracy?

MTAtech said:

Addressing post #1007 -- it's long past the time anyone can call this a "witch hunt." Administration officials have been indicted. We know conclusively that the Russian interference occurred -- and only recently did he even stop denying that the Russians were culpable.

As for doing his job -- protecting the U.S. from Russians attacking the 2018 election IS HIS JOB!

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It is obviously difficult for the hardcore Trumpkins to give up the talking points that they have been mouthing for over a year now. Its so deep in them that it now is Pavlovian. And my apologies to those dogs.

MTAtech said:

Those sanctions seemed to have enough "teeth" that Russia was meeting with Flynn on how soon they could be lifted. Russia was also meeting with Trump Jr., and the topic was sanctions. So, they must be rather important to Russia.

Your defense of Russia is what I would expect from a Russian troll, not a serious DP poster.

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One of the favorite books of the right wing back in the Joe McCarthy days was NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON. It shows you how far the pendulum has swung that today it is the far right wing that borders on treason with Russia.

bubbabgone said:

The special counsel's office said Friday that a federal grand jury indicted 13 Russian nationals and three Russian entities in the probe into interference in the 2016 elections.

The indictment says that the defendants allegedly, by early to mid 2016, were "supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump ... and disparaging Hillary Clinton."​

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/russians-indicted-in-special-counsel-robert-muellers-probe.html

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Greetings, bubba. :2wave:

Since this doesn't make sense to me, I have several questions on this topic.

1) Since we have freedom of speech in this country, guaranteed by our Constitution, when did it become illegal for anyone to support one candidate over another? H***, as far back as I can remember, every campaign handled by both parties has done exactly the same thing, not only in a presidential election, but all the way down to someone competing for a position on some town's dogcatcher!

2) When did a Grand Jury indict the 16 Russians for allegedly supporting Trump's candidacy, and how did those Russians do this - were they actually in the U.S. or operating from elsewhere in the world, since we were told that this "interference in our elections" had been going on since 2014, so I find it next to impossible to believe that 16 people in a country of over 300 million people could have made a difference in the outcome of anything, let alone an election, no matter how much money was supposedly spent!

3) Since indictment doesn't prove guilt or innocence without a trial, if they weren't in the U.S., would there be a trial "in absentia?" If so, who would conduct same, and what purpose would it serve? I love this country, and I will object strongly to being made to look half-witted or ludicrous, even if the rumor is true that we have done the same in other countries!

:rantoff:

Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

haymarket said:

It is obviously difficult for the hardcore Trumpkins to give up the talking points that they have been mouthing for over a year now. Its so deep in them that it now is Pavlovian. And my apologies to those dogs.

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Once again, Trump has sold-out those that take his word at face-value and repeat them. For more than a year, Trump declared that Russian interference is a “made-up story” (Politifacts 2017 Lie of the Year.)

Now he says:
I never said Russia did not meddle in the election, I said “it may be Russia, or China or another country or group, or it may be a 400 pound genius sitting in bed and playing with his computer.” The Russian “hoax” was that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia - it never did!



Vox did an entire article that contradicts Trump's claim.

But Trump minions have been running around repeating that Russia meddling in the election was a hoax. Now, Trump says otherwise.

polgara said:

Greetings, bubba. :2wave:

Since this doesn't make sense to me, I have several questions on this topic.

1) Since we have freedom of speech in this country, guaranteed by our Constitution, when did it become illegal for anyone to support one candidate over another? H***, as far back as I can remember, every campaign handled by both parties has done exactly the same thing, not only in a presidential election, but all the way down to someone competing for a position on some town's dogcatcher!

2) When did a Grand Jury indict the 16 Russians for allegedly supporting Trump's candidacy, and how did those Russians do this - were they actually in the U.S. or operating from elsewhere in the world, since we were told that this "interference in our elections" had been going on since 2014, so I find it next to impossible to believe that 16 people in a country of over 300 million people could have made a difference in the outcome of anything, let alone an election, no matter how much money was supposedly spent!

3) Since indictment doesn't prove guilt or innocence without a trial, if they weren't in the U.S., would there be a trial "in absentia?" If so, who would conduct same, and what purpose would it serve? I love this country, and I will object strongly to being made to look half-witted or ludicrous, even if the rumor is true that we have done the same in other countries!

:rantoff:

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Perhaps you glossed over the crux of the indictments. They weren't for "supporting Trump." The full indictment, should answer all of your questions.

SNIPPET:
"U.S. law bans foreign nationals from making certain expenditures or financial disbursements for the purpose of influencing federal elections. U.S. law also bars agents of any foreign entity from engaging in political activities within the United States without first registering with the Attorney General"