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Russians indicted in special counsel's probe for operations allegedly supporting Donald Trump...

iguanaman said:
It's good to see some finally admitting that it is likely that many of those "gullible Americans" were fooled by the Russian trolls and either changed their vote to Trump or stayed home in the election. It only took 80,000 of them in 3 Blue States to swing the election to Trump.
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Mrs. Clinton spent upwards of a billion dollars in her run for the White House. A few million from these Russian guys is a drop in the bucket.
 
upsideguy said:
.... The bots worked to suppress the black vote, convince voters to go with Jill Stein over Hillary and convince voters that Hillary somehow screwed Bernie out the nomination.

Trump won because he had decent voter turn-out in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan, while Hillary had lower than expected turnout, with black voters in particular staying home. Jill Stein also scored 1% of the vote in each of the states, while Hillary lost by 1/2 of 1%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016

None of this is "proof" that the election was altered by Russian interference, but the idea of suppressing 85,000 voters over three states (about 1/2 of 1%), especially when undecideds were running 5-7% at election day, is not only plausible, but its not stretch to say it was probable.
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Nobody's votes were suppressed.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

I think the intelligence community has withheld from Trump information about Russian meddling and relating to the Steele dossier. They've done this on instructions from the Obama administration concerned over collusion with the Russians. Originally this withholding may have been in good faith, if there was a genuine concern Hillary's thesis was correct. The lack of corroborating evidence of any collusion with Russian agents by Trump's team and the continuous leakage by now reveals Hillary's thesis is mistaken.

The ineffective and insignificant Russian involvement is nonetheless intolerable, but Mueller's dealing with it by indictments is an error. Mueller conducted a criminal investigation of the Russian involvement as part of his effort to investigate Trump's collusion with the Russians, because if he had conducted a counterintelligence investigation of that Russian involvement he would be required to inform Trump. The outcome of a successful criminal investigation is an indictment, the outcome of a successful counterintelligence investigation are political, diplomatic, economic and even military actions to dissuade recurrence.

Indicting 13 Russians and 3 Russian entities for interfering with the US election is a purely political response whereby Mueller buttresses his position, nobody will ever answer for this in court and it will support the ongoing effort (though that "unwitting" doesn't help).

If Mueller had duly apprised Trump of developments in his counterintelligence investigation of Russian interference Trump could have threatened sanctions, expelled Russian diplomats, restricted trade with Russia or done a number of appropriate things to convey displeasure over their involvement.

Mueller's criminal indictment of Russians for interfering in the elections opens the door for foreign governments to reciprocate whenever they detect a similar effort by US citizens. This should be a concern because the Russian effort was quite insignificant, so the bar is low, any US citizen posting on social media negative commentary about a foreign candidate or expressing support for his opposition, urging any action to get one or another elected, could be criminally prosecuted. The Russians did more, 13 of them apparently traveled to the US to impersonate citizens, opened accounts, identified themselves as citizens and became involved in political organizations engaged in the campaign. Whether a targeted hostile regime would require the level of evidence Mueller did is dubious.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Mrs. Clinton spent upwards of a billion dollars in her run for the White House. A few million from these Russian guys is a drop in the bucket.
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Hillary is an American. It is illegal for foreign adversaries to spend one dime influencing American voters. The 80,000 votes that gave Trump the election is also a "drop in the bucket" so there is that.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

iguanaman said:
It's good to see some finally admitting that it is likely that many of those "gullible Americans" were fooled by the Russian trolls and either changed their vote to Trump or stayed home in the election. It only took 80,000 of them in 3 Blue States to swing the election to Trump.
Click to expand...

Anyone who believes that the Russians were involved in manipulating a US national election ought to be sent straight back to start over in grade school, one outside the USA where US propaganda's reach is more limited.

And the really, crazy thing in all this, we have USians, the greatest invaders on the planet for the last century actually discussing OTHERS interfering in other countries' affairs. The height of irony! Perfect material for another 1984 book!
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

MateoMtnClimber said:
That's not a contradiction. I know what exonerated means, but you obviously don't. How do every one of your posts get progressively dumber?
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We know your posts grow more insulting because of your inability to create an argument.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

apdst said:
We know your posts grow more insulting because of your inability to create an argument.
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Is that they royal "we"? In case you haven't noticed, you don't have a lot of fans in the forum. I don't know for whom you think you're speaking.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

MateoMtnClimber said:
Is that they royal "we"? In case you haven't noticed, you don't have a lot of fans in the forum. I don't know for whom you think you're speaking.
Click to expand...

Don't call people dumb when you can't compose a coherent sentence.

I'm more interested in quality, than quanity
 
Athanasius68 said:
Mrs. Clinton spent upwards of a billion dollars in her run for the White House. A few million from these Russian guys is a drop in the bucket.
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I'm still trying to figure out why the Russians wanted a third party on the payroll when they already had Bubba Clinton and his lesbian harpy already sucking up millions at their trough.

What a sad state we have become when we let ambulance chasers run the show.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

iguanaman said:
OK I will bite. What has Trump done to protect this country from attacks by Russia on our FUTURE elections. Or do you think we should put Obama back in office to do that?
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Obama in office? No, that's done and over with.

Mueller's indictments of 13 Russians and 3 Russian corporations did come during the present administration.

The Trump administration's going to have to make a statement and / or take action with these indictments made public. They were made only on Friday, so we'll have to see what actions and / or statements they made in the near future as a response.

Some has come out already:

“As you can see with the FBI indictment,” McMaster told an audience at security conference in Germany, “the evidence is now really incontrovertible and available in the public domain, whereas in the past it was difficult to attribute.”

McMaster spoke moments after Lavrov, appearing on the same stage in Munich, railed against what he called an “irrational myth” that Russia poses a global threat, “traces of which are found everywhere – from Brexit to the Catalan referendum”.

“Until we see the facts, everything else is just blabber – I’m sorry for this expression,” Lavrov said through an interpreter.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...master-russia-election-meddling-investigation
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Waiting for the facts before making a statement is a wise choice, won't have to walk back anything later.

It appears that some have incorrectly stated that Trump admin hasn't instituted further sanctions against Russia. Truth is, they have.

Washington (CNN)The Trump administration announced new sanctions Friday related to Russia's occupation of Crimea and ongoing violence in eastern Ukraine, just days ahead of a congressionally mandated deadline for the implementation a separate, broad array of Russia-related sanctions.

In a press release, the Treasury Department said it was designating 21 individuals and nine entities under existing authorities, including Russian government officials and Russian companies connected to projects in the disputed Crimean Peninsula.

The agency also sanctioned senior leaders of two Ukrainian separatist groups, the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic, as well as people and entities alleged to have provided them with material support.

"The US government is committed to maintaining the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine and to targeting those who attempt to undermine the Minsk agreements," Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin said in a statement. "Those who provide goods, services, or material support to individuals and entities sanctioned by the United States for their activities in Ukraine are engaging in behavior that could expose them to US sanctions."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/26/politics/us-russia-sanctions-ukraine/index.html
Click to expand...
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

Plus Ultra said:
I think the intelligence community has withheld from Trump information about Russian meddling and relating to the Steele dossier. They've done this on instructions from the Obama administration concerned over collusion with the Russians. Originally this withholding may have been in good faith, if there was a genuine concern Hillary's thesis was correct. The lack of corroborating evidence of any collusion with Russian agents by Trump's team and the continuous leakage by now reveals Hillary's thesis is mistaken.

The ineffective and insignificant Russian involvement is nonetheless intolerable, but Mueller's dealing with it by indictments is an error. Mueller conducted a criminal investigation of the Russian involvement as part of his effort to investigate Trump's collusion with the Russians, because if he had conducted a counterintelligence investigation of that Russian involvement he would be required to inform Trump. The outcome of a successful criminal investigation is an indictment, the outcome of a successful counterintelligence investigation are political, diplomatic, economic and even military actions to dissuade recurrence.

Indicting 13 Russians and 3 Russian entities for interfering with the US election is a purely political response whereby Mueller buttresses his position, nobody will ever answer for this in court and it will support the ongoing effort (though that "unwitting" doesn't help).

If Mueller had duly apprised Trump of developments in his counterintelligence investigation of Russian interference Trump could have threatened sanctions, expelled Russian diplomats, restricted trade with Russia or done a number of appropriate things to convey displeasure over their involvement.

Mueller's criminal indictment of Russians for interfering in the elections opens the door for foreign governments to reciprocate whenever they detect a similar effort by US citizens. This should be a concern because the Russian effort was quite insignificant, so the bar is low, any US citizen posting on social media negative commentary about a foreign candidate or expressing support for his opposition, urging any action to get one or another elected, could be criminally prosecuted. The Russians did more, 13 of them apparently traveled to the US to impersonate citizens, opened accounts, identified themselves as citizens and became involved in political organizations engaged in the campaign. Whether a targeted hostile regime would require the level of evidence Mueller did is dubious.
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I certainly hope our most sensitive information is being withheld from the Trump Whitehouse. They have proven themselves unable or unwilling to secure our secrets time and time again. Their appointment of a foreign agent as NSA director and only firing him when his actions were exposed show a concerted effort to hide security breeches from the public and the Congress.

BTW Your "nothing to see here" stance belies a genuine effort to cover up and belittle an attack on our institutions that leaves me little choice but call you out as a traitor. Since when do we tolerate such behavior from our adversaries? Does tribalism trump patriotism now? It sure seems that way to me. Grow a pair and admit you are wrong about Trump. We won't hold your naivety against you. We all make mistakes.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

eohrnberger said:
Obama in office? No, that's done and over with.

Mueller's indictments of 13 Russians and 3 Russian corporations did come during the present administration.

The Trump administration's going to have to make a statement and / or take action with these indictments made public. They were made only on Friday, so we'll have to see what actions and / or statements they made in the near future as a response.

Some has come out already:



Waiting for the facts before making a statement is a wise choice, won't have to walk back anything later.

It appears that some have incorrectly stated that Trump admin hasn't instituted further sanctions against Russia. Truth is, they have.
Click to expand...

All Trump as done since the indictments is tweet disparaging remarks about law enforcement. When are we going to see him blame the perps of this attack, Putin and his oligarchs?
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

apdst said:
Don't call people dumb when you can't compose a coherent sentence.

I'm more interested in quality, than quanity
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You don't know what "the royal we" is, do you? I stand by my claim that your posts are indeed dumb. Thanks much.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

MateoMtnClimber said:
You don't know what "the royal we" is, do you? I stand by my claim that your posts are indeed dumb. Thanks much.
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That isn't what you wrote.

Time for the obligatory :lamo
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

Perotista said:
We probably won't know about the collusion one way or other until Mueller finishes his investigation. Everything else in that regard is pretty much hearsay and political propaganda from both sides.

I would say the Democrats gain from a weaken Trump administration as do the Russians. If it was the Russian's goal to sow discard among the American populace and to distrust our election system, they have succeeded. Now I think for years we have been doing that to ourselves anyway.
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The Russian have had much gain already from Trump's election and weakening him will not help Russia. In fact his impeachment would be a strong message that we will not tolerate a conspiracy to influence our democratic process. The sooner he is gone the sooner we can regain control of our apparatus to fight Putin and his plans to weaken us from within. Trump STILL will not even chastise Putin for his acts of war against us. We cannot even begin to fight against him until Trump is gone.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

iguanaman said:
LOL You think that is what the indictment indicated? Are you that naive? READ THE INDICTMENT before posting such nonsense. Those Russians posting anti-Hillary fake news did not live here and no, fraud is not covered under the 1st amendment.
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'READ THE INDICTMENT' What? I'd be more likely to read the ingredients on the label of cereal box although I doubt either choice
would heap upon me information that would be priceless to know. The biggest waste of time & money one can imagine has ever occurred
in American history & Mueller & company come out with something to justify over a years worth of work that far less than remarkable.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

upsideguy said:
No question. They elected a snake oil salesman under the guise that he was a decisive, successful businessman because he plays one on TV.

Those people that elected this fantasy president remain a threat as the are have no clue as to the magnitude of current threat to our democracy from without (Russia) and within (Trump), as the latter is doing NOTHING to protect America from this existential threat of the former.
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People, largely Americans, who think that the Russians could sway their dog and pony show presidential elections are fodder for another Joe McCarthy, ie. the dumbest, most gullible people on the planet.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

iguanaman said:
All Trump as done since the indictments is tweet disparaging remarks about law enforcement. When are we going to see him blame the perps of this attack, Putin and his oligarchs?
Click to expand...

I see you with your TDS are pretty well stuck on your narrative, and without response to what I posted, nor the citation I posted.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

slick said:
'READ THE INDICTMENT' What? I'd be more likely to read the ingredients on the label of cereal box although I doubt either choice
would heap upon me information that would be priceless to know. The biggest waste of time & money one can imagine has ever occurred
in American history & Mueller & company come out with something to justify over a years worth of work that far less than remarkable.
Click to expand...

Ignorance is not bliss... Stop posting things you have no clue about.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

eohrnberger said:
I see you with your TDS are pretty well stuck on your narrative, and without response to what I posted, nor the citation I posted.
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None of those things were said or done by Trump. Why is that? Is he President or not?
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

slick said:
'READ THE INDICTMENT' What? I'd be more likely to read the ingredients on the label of cereal box although I doubt either choice
would heap upon me information that would be priceless to know. The biggest waste of time & money one can imagine has ever occurred
in American history & Mueller & company come out with something to justify over a years worth of work that far less than remarkable.
Click to expand...

The clinton thing was a waste of time and money, all the silly little investigations put on by US governments are silly little investigations meant to make the sheeple think that they are doing something for them.

Do USians constantly mutter to themselves - government of the people, by the people, for the people; government of the people, by the people, for the people; government of the people, by the people, for the people; ... ?

Major dupes ALL!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
- Voltaire

Voltaire was obviously thinking about Americans.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

camlok said:
The clinton thing was a waste of time and money, all the silly little investigations put on by US governments are silly little investigations meant to make the sheeple think that they are doing something for them.

Do USians constantly mutter to themselves - government of the people, by the people, for the people; government of the people, by the people, for the people; government of the people, by the people, for the people; ... ?

Major dupes ALL!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
- Voltaire

Voltaire was obviously thinking about Americans.
Click to expand...

Partisan investigations are always just for show. That's why Mueller is a Republican. We have trust in our institutions. That is what you are worried about Comrade.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

iguanaman said:
Partisan investigations are always just for show. That's why Mueller is a Republican. We have trust in our institutions.
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All US investigations are partisan and all US investigations are for show, for the odd time a sheeple looks up from its grass.
 
Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

apdst said:
That isn't what you wrote.

Time for the obligatory :lamo
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You would be laughing at yourself. I, on the other hand, pity you. Don't you think it's a little silly to lie when everything we say in this forum gets recorded and archived?

MateoMtnClimber said:
Is that the royal "we"? In case you haven't noticed, you don't have a lot of fans in the forum. I don't know for whom you think you're speaking.
Click to expand...

If you're referring to my placement of the quotation marks, I only moved them because you were having a hard time understanding English. Unsurprisingly. I also corrected my typo from "they" to "the".
 
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Re: Russians indicted in special counsel Robert Mueller's probe of election meddling to support Trum

MateoMtnClimber said:
You would be laughing at yourself. I, on the other hand, pity you. Don't you think it's a little silly to lie when everything we say in this forum gets recorded and archived?



If you're referring to my placement of the quotation marks, I only moved them because you were having a hard time understanding English. Unsurprisingly.
Click to expand...

Man, you STILL don't see it.

One more :lamo and I'm done.

Make it two :lamo
 
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