Criminal referral backs up Nunes on dossier claims

Jack Fabulous said:

Criminal referral backs up Nunes on dossier claims, as Dems push rebuttal memo | Fox News


This is just going to keep getting worse until all of the source documents are revealed and transcripts of the proceedings are all made public. The way I see it there are only two possible outcomes and neither of them is good. Either the FISA court was misled about the evidence presented to grant the warrant or the threshold which must be met for such a warrant to be granted needs a thorough and complete overhaul.

Seriously, is anyone comfortable with a system which allows the work of political agents doing opposition research to be considered as credible evidence worthy of granting a warrant authorizing government surveillance of U.S. citizens? This is crazy!

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To my knowledge, the Republicans haven't even recommended a review of FISA due to this dossier argument. The Reps, and Dems, only recently voted in a super majority to continue FISA as is. Given the gravity of everything the Republicans are alleging, why aren't they recommending changes to the FISA warrant procedure or holding anyone accountable? A serious comedy of Much Ado About Nothing, with all the attendant trickery.

Exactice said:

Im with you I dont know much.... it is questionable.... but again.... I think that is why the shell of the FISA (act) was created to address these grey areas should they need to come up with charges against an American right? This hidden court is justification?

That being said..... lets face it Americans are likely monitored in ways we would never expected to include black box programs not known by many........It is the governments responsibility to "protect its citizen" and warfare has changed dramatically..... so this evolution of intelligence is almost anticipated right?

The issue we see is that ones that GO to these Courts or use the programs if they HAVE a noted bias agenda to abuse them should be held responsible and more so SHOULD be held HIGHLY accountable for their actions... to included reflexive punishment?

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Ive done a little reading, and Im not sure I feel any better.

When they were originally set up, it was to be used on foreign subjects and not Americans...seems everyone was OK with that when it was formed..it morphed into something else.....snaring Americans in webs of megadata collection from Verizon among others....I guess it was Edward Snowden releasing this to Wikileaks that we first heard FISA was also being used on Americans....and apparently continues to do so....none of this addresses my questions on 4th and 6th Ammendment protections....Ugh.

Jack Fabulous said:

Present something factual that suggests it IS a possibility, then.

Cast aside the smarmy, hackish narratives that you have become so famous for and go at this straight up. Are you capable?

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Oh jack, I wish you could take off your partisan blinders and see just how ridiculous your post is. Your only conclusions are “fisa warrant process bad” or “dossier bad.” Those are the only possibilities in your “universe” because those are the only two that push your obedient narrative. I don’t have to post facts for you to consider the possibility there is nothing wrong with the process. and jack, its one of your own narratives. its why you "dossier bad" is one of your obedient narratives. Its ideology and obedience that drives your narrative. You need to take the first step back to reality by yourself.

But here’s some facts for you to consider. Your conservative masters only now have a problem with the process. Surely even in your “universe” you find the timing suspicious. And remember your conservative masters are the same people who lied to you “born in Kenya”, “forged BC”, “stimulus will cause hyperinflation, dollar collapse, market to zero” , “death panels” and of course the vile and disgusting “stand down” lies. Why isn't it a possibility that they’re simply lying again?

Vern said:

Oh jack, I wish you could take off your partisan blinders and see just how ridiculous your post is. Your only conclusions are “fisa warrant process bad” or “dossier bad.” Those are the only possibilities in your “universe” because those are the only two that push your obedient narrative. I don’t have to post facts for you to consider the possibility there is nothing wrong with the process. and jack, its one of your own narratives. its why you "dossier bad" is one of your obedient narratives. Its ideology and obedience that drives your narrative. You need to take the first step back to reality by yourself.

But here’s some facts for you to consider. Your conservative masters only now have a problem with the process. Surely even in your “universe” you find the timing suspicious. And remember your conservative masters are the same people who lied to you “born in Kenya”, “forged BC”, “stimulus will cause hyperinflation, dollar collapse, market to zero” , “death panels” and of course the vile and disgusting “stand down” lies. Why isn't it a possibility that they’re simply lying again?

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Hmm... not a fact in there. Lot's of smarmy, lot's of labeling, but not a factual rebuttal to the Nunes memo or the Graham-Grassley referral to be found.

At least you're consistent?

Grandpa said:

Ive done a little reading, and Im not sure I feel any better.

When they were originally set up, it was to be used on foreign subjects and not Americans...seems everyone was OK with that when it was formed..it morphed into something else.....snaring Americans in webs of megadata collection from Verizon among others....I guess it was Edward Snowden releasing this to Wikileaks that we first heard FISA was also being used on Americans....and apparently continues to do so....none of this addresses my questions on 4th and 6th Ammendment protections....Ugh.

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thats the evolution of warfare and what we are dealing with currently. And YES.... there ARE questions and deeper questions that you are saying...I dont FEEL good about being spied on BUT.... and this is a HUGE but, IF I am not doing anything WRONG legally..... then what am I afraid of...... What is the worst the can do catch me beating off in the privacy of my own home? I mean seriously.


So with the intent.... as I stated a response to Sangha. Flynn, "should" have registered as a foreign Agent, for "Turkey" because he lobbied for them due to a contract of his Company. This was specific to the Coup in Turkey..... SO does the FISA have a reason to "spy on Flynn" as a foreign agent? Sure if the reason and case is related to Turkey? But its not right? so there should not be any warrants for it?


Secondly. Page and Papadapolus, Where they considered acting "foreign agents"? is this why they had FISA warrants against them. the issue then comes to.... is the dossier what pointed out these facts. WAS the dossier a political bias with no known evidence of them "Acting" as foreign agents. FLYNN WAS charged, but Page is walking free and Papadapolus is being hit up for tax evasion.

No Foreign agent stuff.... so again was the abuse of power NOTED to use the FISA as an excuse.... it sure seems so as you stated.... it was to monitor FOREIGN Governments, and Acting Foreign Agents. BUT we see that Page and Papadapolus NEVER were...... only Flynn, but even HIS involvement had NOTHING to do with Russia....

Jack Fabulous said:

Criminal referral backs up Nunes on dossier claims, as Dems push rebuttal memo | Fox News


This is just going to keep getting worse until all of the source documents are revealed and transcripts of the proceedings are all made public. The way I see it there are only two possible outcomes and neither of them is good. Either the FISA court was misled about the evidence presented to grant the warrant or the threshold which must be met for such a warrant to be granted needs a thorough and complete overhaul.

Seriously, is anyone comfortable with a system which allows the work of political agents doing opposition research to be considered as credible evidence worthy of granting a warrant authorizing government surveillance of U.S. citizens? This is crazy!

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Don't you just love circular reasoning. Grassley confirms Nunes. Its like Butch vouching for Sundance.

upsideguy said:

Don't you just love circular reasoning. Grassley confirms Nunes. Its like Butch vouching for Sundance.

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What ultimately happens with this is going to be based on fact. Right now those facts(source documents and courtroom transcripts) remain classified. Both the Nunes memo and the Graham-Grassley referral are based upon those facts and sooner or later those source documents are going to be declassified.

I have a hard time believing that every GOP Senator and Congressman on those committees would be dumb enough to put themselves in the position that getting caught lying about the facts would put them in. And in case you haven't noticed, with the exception of arguing about what constitutes the acceptable disclosure of the political nature of the Steele dossier, the challenges to these memos are politically based, not factually based.

We'll find out for sure when the source documents are made available.

Thoreau72 said:

I don't doubt that for a minute, but it does not change the fact that the end result of 99% of applications is approval. You're exactly right--this rubber stamp process is not limited to FISC.

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Here's the most recent data based on new methods that count the various categories.

http://www.uscourts.gov/sites/defau...eillance_court_annual_report_2016_final_0.pdf

The FISC disclosed that it received 1,752 applications in 2016. After consideration by the court, 1,378 orders were granted, 339 orders were modified, 26 orders were denied in part, and 9 applications were denied in full.

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The full data IMO indicate it's really not a rubber stamp court. About 21% of the applications were either modified by the court or denied in full or in part. We've also seen or read the requirements for a FISA court application, which are extensive, including sign off by incredibly highly ranked individuals at both FBI and DoJ. So the standard for submission is high, and even for those requests, 1 in 5 are substantially not granted as requested.

Jack Fabulous said:

What ultimately happens with this is going to be based on fact. Right now those facts(source documents and courtroom transcripts) remain classified. Both the Nunes memo and the Graham-Grassley referral are based upon those facts and sooner or later those source documents are going to be declassified.

I have a hard time believing that every GOP Senator and Congressman on those committees would be dumb enough to put themselves in the position that getting caught lying about the facts would put them in. And in case you haven't noticed, with the exception of arguing about what constitutes the acceptable disclosure of the political nature of the Steele dossier, the challenges to these memos are politically based, not factually based.

We'll find out for sure when the source documents are made available.

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I agree with you in a way, but almost none of them actually have seen the actual intelligence. I don't think Nunes actually reviewed the intelligence - he designated Gowdy for that role in the House on the GOP side per the DoJ letter. So for the most sensitive, only Gowdy and Schiff reviewed it (and their designated staffers - two each as I recall).

And the reason I don't trust Nunes is summed up with the first charge in that memo. It asserts what we know, which is that the DNC paid the law firm that hired Steele. But the memo asserts two other facts:

1) The FBI knew about the political origins of the dossier, and
2) That the FBI did not disclose that the DNC funded the dossier.

Well, the memo does not actually assert the FBI knew the exact client of the law firm, which was the DNC/Hillary. And Nunes admitted the FBI did notify the court in a footnote that the origin of the memo was political.

So did the FBI hide any information? We don't know and the memo is either written incompetently, or was deliberately deceptive. Nunes' reputation leads me to conclude the latter, which is why it's such a travesty that partisan hack is in charge of the committee.

Jack Fabulous said:

What ultimately happens with this is going to be based on fact. Right now those facts(source documents and courtroom transcripts) remain classified. Both the Nunes memo and the Graham-Grassley referral are based upon those facts and sooner or later those source documents are going to be declassified.

I have a hard time believing that every GOP Senator and Congressman on those committees would be dumb enough to put themselves in the position that getting caught lying about the facts would put them in. And in case you haven't noticed, with the exception of arguing about what constitutes the acceptable disclosure of the political nature of the Steele dossier, the challenges to these memos are politically based, not factually based.

We'll find out for sure when the source documents are made available.

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I am having a very hard time believing most of what I see going on right now, particularly the actions or inactions of the people on the right.

Can you say Rob Johnson? Nunes and Grassley are malleable lightweights. I do expect more of Graham. But, overall, the Republican reaction to Russia attacking the America via the Internet is beyond belief, only to be topped by the Republicans attacking fundamental American institutions, including law enforcement.

Jack Fabulous said:

I have a hard time believing that every GOP Senator and Congressman on those committees would be dumb enough to put themselves in the position that getting caught lying about the facts would put them in.

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well jack, even if they're caught lying beyond all doubt its not a big deal. You and yours don't hold them accountable. You don't hold them accountable for lying about deficits, birth certificates, stimulus, auto bailouts, Obamcare, replacing Obamacare, Benghazi or every word that has comes out of trump's mouth. Why should they stop lying? Some of you will believe "nuh uh" and the smarter ones will post "both sides do it" but it has the same effect: no accountability. Case in point. Look how you still believe what nunes says even though he's proven himself a liar and a trump stooge.

robertblake60 said:

You're the same guy that thinks the banking system needs to be shut down and everyone should have 0% interest rate loans right?

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I enjoy putting it forward as a thought experiment. What does that have to do with this thread?

Lerxst said:

Dubious sources? Do you have any idea how investigations work? Typically, information used in search warrants comes from dubious sources. Confidential informants who operate in the criminal world, criminals who are flipped and give information, etc. You corroborate the information with another source and you move forward.

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How about shady former spies who have open, strong political leanings who lie to the FBI. Does that sound like a good source?

For the dubious source issue to become a problem, it would have to be proven there was no other supporting evidence or information that led to search warrant and to the judge approving it.

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You mean like what the Nunes and Grassley memo showed?

phattonez said:

I miss the days when Democrats cared about FISA abuse. As much as I oppose Glenn Greenwald on a variety of issues, he's at least consistent, and he's remained outraged about this abuse.

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I miss the days when the GOP was very anti Russia. Now the GOP gives the Russkies a pass for interfering in our elections.

Ahh the good old days

yankintx said:

I miss the days when the GOP was very anti Russia. Now the GOP gives the Russkies a pass for interfering in our elections.

Ahh the good old days

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What, exactly, did they do again?

phattonez said:

What, exactly, did they do again?

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Trump sold us out for the win. And the GOP are backing the guy up in his crimes. Exact enough for ya ?

But you keep clinging to that memo lol Mr Mueller and his team will be back at work tomorrow going over their questions to be asked of the Liar in Chief. Lets hope your boy can dig deep for a smidgen of integrity. It would help him from committing perjury. Have a fantastic evening.

yankintx said:

Trump sold us out for the win. And the GOP are backing the guy up in his crimes. Exact enough for ya ?

But you keep clinging to that memo lol Mr Mueller and his team will be back at work tomorrow going over their questions to be asked of the Liar in Chief. Lets hope your boy can dig deep for a smidgen of integrity. It would help him from committing perjury. Have a fantastic evening.

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Thanks for dodging the question!

phattonez said:

How about shady former spies who have open, strong political leanings who lie to the FBI. Does that sound like a good source?



You mean like what the Nunes and Grassley memo showed?

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You need a life preserver to go with that memo?:lamo The Adorables were all over that hit piece like flies on ****. Are you a fly ?

phattonez said:

Thanks for dodging the question!

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Patience, all answers will soon be known. Until then you will have to just wait in anticipation.

Vern said:

well jack, even if they're caught lying beyond all doubt its not a big deal. You and yours don't hold them accountable. You don't hold them accountable for lying about deficits, birth certificates, stimulus, auto bailouts, Obamcare, replacing Obamacare, Benghazi or every word that has comes out of trump's mouth. Why should they stop lying? Some of you will believe "nuh uh" and the smarter ones will post "both sides do it" but it has the same effect: no accountability. Case in point. Look how you still believe what nunes says even though he's proven himself a liar and a trump stooge.

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More smarmy, labeling, hyper-partisan bull****.

You are consistent, Vern.

phattonez said:

How about shady former spies who have open, strong political leanings who lie to the FBI. Does that sound like a good source?

You mean like what the Nunes and Grassley memo showed?

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Neither memo shows that there was no other supporting evidence or information. You can try to quote from them if you want, but that's not going to happen.

Jack Fabulous said:

More smarmy, labeling, hyper-partisan bull****.

You are consistent, Vern.

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No, its not partisan BS. Trump is a serial liar. He lied about his own inauguration attendance numbers. He lied about how many people watched his SOTU, he's done terrible things to the people who have worked for him. He's stolen from people (Trump U). The man is everything repulsive in the world. That's not partisan BS, that's reality.

leekohler2 said:

No, its not partisan BS. Trump is a serial liar. He lied about his own inauguration attendance numbers. He lied about how many people watched his SOTU, he's done terrible things to the people who have worked for him. He's stolen from people (Trump U). The man is everything repulsive in the world. That's not partisan BS, that's reality.

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Cool story, bro.

Jack Fabulous said:

The Steele dossier wasn't completed until sometime around September of 2016. Carter Page was a central part of the dossier and it appears like the FBI used the dossier as their main source of evidence to obtain the FISA warrant. ( i.e. no dossier, no warrant to spy on Carter Page)

They applied for and were denied a warrant to place him under surveillance in June of 2016.

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Not an answer to my question: If the aim of those "Clinton-loving" FBI agents was to bring down the Trump campaign, why did they wait until after Carter Page had left the Trump campaign?


Now we have former president George W Bush saying the Russians did interfere in the 2016 election AND the head of cybersecurity of the Dept of Homeland Security says Russia did successfuly hack into various state voter systems.

George W. Bush says Russia meddled in 2016 U.S. election
Add former President George W. Bush to the list of those speaking out about Russian interference in the 2016 election.

On Thursday, Bush, who since he exited office in 2009 has kept a relatively low profile, said that "there's pretty clear evidence that the Russians meddled."

"It's problematic that a foreign nation is involved in our election system," said Bush, speaking in Abu Dhabi at a summit put on by the Milken Institute, an economic think tank based in California. "Our democracy is only as good as people trust the results."

He added, "Whether they affected the outcome is another question."

The comments from Bush, 71, are in stark contrast to those of President Trump

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Russians penetrated U.S. voter systems, top U.S. official says
The U.S. official in charge of protecting American elections from hacking says the Russians successfully penetrated the voter registration rolls of several U.S. states prior to the 2016 presidential election.

In an exclusive interview with NBC News, Jeanette Manfra, the head of cybersecurity at the Department of Homeland Security, said she couldn't talk about classified information publicly, but in 2016, "We saw a targeting of 21 states and an exceptionally small number of them were actually successfully penetrated."

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Somerville said:

Not an answer to my question: If the aim of those "Clinton-loving" FBI agents was to bring down the Trump campaign, why did they wait until after Carter Page had left the Trump campaign?

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They applied for and were denied a FISA warrant for Carter Page in June of 2016. I don't know why they chose to go after him again in October of 2016. Maybe when they release the source documents you will have an answer.