Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps

Harshaw said:

If you knew anything about Gorsuch's legal philosophy, you'd know he's not likely to look kindly upon what Scarnati is doing here.

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I think he will, because in my view the PA supreme court is outside their authority and thus their ruling is not "law" it is null as if it were never issued, and since the underlying order is illegal it is acceptable to disobey it.

EMNofSeattle said:

No, the court has no authority to interfere in district making per the US and PA constitutions. hence any police officer who arrested him would be in violation of the federal criminal code, specifically 18 USC § 242 which states

Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

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And no citizen of PA has the right to defy a legal order from a court. This isn't about the 'interfering in district making'. This is about obeying and abiding by an order from the supreme court of the state. The court has plenty of authority to enforce that.

Tanngrisnir said:

And no citizen of PA has the right to defy a legal order from a court. This isn't about the 'interfering in district making'. This is about obeying and abiding by an order from the supreme court of the state. The court has plenty of authority to enforce that.

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Not correct at all, the court may only issue orders in compliance with its powers. since it does not have the constitutional power to write legislative districts, it cannot compel any person to follow that order.

furthermore, under Article II § 15 of the PA Constitution

§ 15. Privileges of members.
The members of the General Assembly shall in all cases,
except treason, felony, violation of their oath of office, and
breach or surety of the peace, be privileged from arrest during
their attendance at the sessions of their respective Houses and
in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or
debate in either House they shall not be questioned in any other
place.

Well, if you don't agree with a court order you don't have to follow it right Republicans?

EMNofSeattle said:

Not correct at all, the court may only issue orders in compliance with its powers. since it does not have the constitutional power to write legislative districts, it cannot compel any person to follow that order.

furthermore, under Article II § 15 of the PA Constitution

§ 15. Privileges of members.
The members of the General Assembly shall in all cases,
except treason, felony, violation of their oath of office, and
breach or surety of the peace, be privileged from arrest during
their attendance at the sessions of their respective Houses and
in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or
debate in either House they shall not be questioned in any other
place.

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That has yet to be determined by the Supremes, and the court most certainly has to power to rule that the legislature's actions are unconstitutional, since the court itself is not drawing up any districts.

WTF would ANY American expect from a GOP POS? .................

He prolly lets his wife out for free ****s & **** too ...........

Harshaw said:

If you knew anything about Gorsuch's legal philosophy, you'd know he's not likely to look kindly upon what Scarnati is doing here.

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Hey dude, from your mouth to God's ear.
If you're right, I'll send you a six-pack of your favorite brewski's!

Tanngrisnir said:

That has yet to be determined by the Supremes, and the court most certainly has to power to rule that the legislature's actions are unconstitutional, since the court itself is not drawing up any districts.

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Well yes they are, their threat is basically extortion, either the Assembly redraws districts or the court will.

The US Supreme Court is currently looking at staying the PA Supreme Court's decision.

The court has authority to put whatever they want to paper, but the legislature does not have to comply with an illegal ruling.

And your original contention that lawmakers should be arrested for not complying is false, as the constitution privileges lawmakers from arrest.

EMNofSeattle said:

Not correct at all, the court may only issue orders in compliance with its powers. since it does not have the constitutional power to write legislative districts, it cannot compel any person to follow that order.

furthermore, under Article II § 15 of the PA Constitution

§ 15. Privileges of members.
The members of the General Assembly shall in all cases,
except treason, felony, violation of their oath of office, and
breach or surety of the peace, be privileged from arrest during
their attendance at the sessions of their respective Houses and
in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or
debate in either House they shall not be questioned in any other
place.

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That last just means they cannot be arrested while at work, or going too and from it.
Or it sounds like it.

Could you point me to why you think the SCOPA doesn't have the power to order and/or enforce their ruling?

EMNofSeattle said:

Well yes they are, their threat is basically extortion, either the Assembly redraws districts or the court will.

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No, they're not and no, it's not extortion. The court in no way indicated that it would redraw the districts. Why pretend otherwise?

The US Supreme Court is currently looking at staying the PA Supreme Court's decision.

The court has authority to put whatever they want to paper, but the legislature does not have to comply with an illegal ruling.

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No one has argued otherwise.

And your original contention that lawmakers should be arrested for not complying is false, as the constitution privileges lawmakers from arrest.

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They are not immune from consequences of denying legal court orders. It's really that simple.

Tanngrisnir said:

No, they're not and no, it's not extortion. The court in no way indicated that it would redraw the districts. Why pretend otherwise?

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The top Republican in the Pennsylvania Senate told the state’s Supreme Court on Wednesday that he is refusing to follow a court order asking lawmakers to turn over data to help correct a gerrymandered congressional map.

The letter from Senate President Pro Tempore Joseph Scarnati was the latest move Republicans have made to slow down the process of redrawing the congressional map, which the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled was in violation of the state constitution earlier this month.

The court is giving lawmakers and Gov. Tom Wolf (D) until Feb. 15 to come up with a new map. If they can’t agree on one by then, the court has appointed a special master to get one in place so that the state’s scheduled election primaries can run smoothly. To help the special master draw a map, the court asked lawmakers to provide data on Pennsylvania municipalities and precincts by noon on Wednesday.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...ring-pennsylvania_us_5a723db6e4b05253b27550c2



[/quote]They are no immune from consequences of denying legal court orders. It's really that simple.[/QUOTE]

actually they specifically are, see PA Constitution Art II §15

The Mark said:

That last just means they cannot be arrested while at work, or going too and from it.
Or it sounds like it.

Could you point me to why you think the SCOPA doesn't have the power to order and/or enforce their ruling?

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I don't think that a clearly illegal order has any power if the other branches of government refuse to follow it.

First off, the Supreme Court is currently considering a stay on the SCOPA ruling, the League of Women voters specifically challenged the districts in state court hoping this issue would be resolved and try to argue Federal courts had no authority, so this was a power grab to start with, the court is ordering districts illegal and trying to extort the legislature by saying if the legislature doesn't fix it there hand picked "master" will do it for them. and this issue is being litgated in other states with SCOTUS looking into it. so since this was a blatant attempt to use a partisan SCOPA to sidestep SCOTUS to assume authority over offices provided for in the US Constitution it is illegal and unenforceable until SCOTUS rules.

Tanngrisnir said:

No, they're not and no, it's not extortion. The court in no way indicated that it would redraw the districts. Why pretend otherwise?

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Actually, it did...kinda:
http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opini... 10339890932033626.pdf#search="congressional district %27Supreme%2bCourt%27%22

Third, should the General Assembly not submit a congressional districting plan
on or before February 9, 2018, or should the Governor not approve the General
Assembly’s plan on or before February 15, 2018, this Court shall proceed expeditiously
to adopt a plan based on the evidentiary record developed in the Commonwealth Court.
In anticipation of that eventuality, the parties shall have the opportunity to be heard; to
[J-1-2018] - 3
wit, all parties and intervenors may submit to the Court proposed remedial districting
plans on or before February 15, 2018.

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More like, they're saying "if you don't redraw the districts, we're going to let the various interested parties do so under a framework we have set up."[/QUOTE]



Edit: This is the dissenting opinion: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opini... 10339890932033722.pdf#search="congressional district %27Supreme%2bCourt%27%22

Edit 2: And THIS is the opinion concurring with the order and yet still dissenting, at least partially: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opini... 10339890932033702.pdf#search="congressional district %27Supreme%2bCourt%27%22

JANFU said:

Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps | TheHill


Disobeying a Supreme Court order.
What should happen? Off to SCOTUS??
I would say yes.

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Here's what the constitution has to say, Article I, Section 4: "The time, places and manner of holding elections for Senators and Representatives shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature thereof;"

If the case goes to the SCOTUS, perhaps the question of gerrymandering, does that fall under the word manner? There is no doubt the Constitution gives the power to the state legislatures. But is mute on the drawing of districts unless that would fall under the word manner. So who knows how the SCOTUS would rule?

The state senator may be right. Elections of Representatives is the responsibility of the state legislature. I don't know. Gerrymanders ought to be made illegal and it could be done according to the Constitution. Section 4, Article I goes on to say, "But the congress may at any time by law make or alter such regulations, except in the places of chusing senators."

I take that to read if congress wanted to, they could indeed outlaw gerrymandering. Remember congress did pass a law requiring federally mandated gerrymandering with majority minority districts.

My only question is why the Pennsylvania Supreme Court would wait 8 years before issuing their ruling? These districts were drawn up after the 2010 census and will be redrawn again after the 2020 census. If these districts were unconstitutional per Pennsylvania's Constitution now or today, they were unconstitutional back in 2011 when they were drawn.

Regardless, it's time for the U.S. Congress to step up to the plate and outlaw gerrymandering. Waiting on a state legislature to do so is a waste of time. The party in power will never give up something that give them a political advantage unless forced to.

EMNofSeattle said:

I don't think that a clearly illegal order has any power if the other branches of government refuse to follow it.

First off, the Supreme Court is currently considering a stay on the SCOPA ruling, the League of Women voters specifically challenged the districts in state court hoping this issue would be resolved and try to argue Federal courts had no authority, so this was a power grab to start with, the court is ordering districts illegal and trying to extort the legislature by saying if the legislature doesn't fix it there hand picked "master" will do it for them. and this issue is being litgated in other states with SCOTUS looking into it. so since this was a blatant attempt to use a partisan SCOPA to sidestep SCOTUS to assume authority over offices provided for in the US Constitution it is illegal and unenforceable until SCOTUS rules.

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I don't know whether it IS partisan, myself - of course, it could be.

I'm simply wondering what basis you have for claiming their order is illegal and they don't have the power or authority to issue it.

Perotista said:

My only question is why the Pennsylvania Supreme Court would wait 8 years before issuing their ruling? These districts were drawn up after the 2010 census and will be redrawn again after the 2020 census. If these districts were unconstitutional per Pennsylvania's Constitution now or today, they were unconstitutional back in 2011 when they were drawn.

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That's the...kinda/sorta...weakness of the courts - their hands are mostly tied, until someone or multiple someones challenges a thing.

JANFU said:

Deflection- redistricting has been clarified by the courts including SCOTUS.

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It's not a deflection but a fact, and the fact is the PA Supreme Court approved of the current districts in 2013. That gave the current districts full legal standing. There is no provision for the PA Supreme Court to go back and re-litigate it. They have to wait until 2020 when there will be the next census. In other words, the PA Supreme Court shouldn't even be looking at it and it is actually they are are way out of line.

The pertinent information can be found in the Pennsylvania in Article II, Section 17, subsections (c) through (e), where subsection (e) is the most relevant part of the regulation.

https://ballotpedia.org/Article_II,_Pennsylvania_Constitution

(c) No later than ninety days after either the commission has been duly certified or the population data for the Commonwealth as determined by the Federal decennial census are available, whichever is later in time, the commission shall file a preliminary reapportionment plan with such elections officer. The commission shall have thirty days after filling the preliminary plan to make corrections in the plan. Any person aggrieved by the preliminary plan shall have the same thirty-day period to file exceptions with the commission in which case the commission shall thirty days after the date the exceptions were filled to prepare and file with such elections officer a revised reapportionment plan. If no exceptions are filled within thirty days, or if filed and acted upon, the commission's plan shall be final and have the force of law.

(d) Any aggrieved person may file an appeal from the final plan directly to the Supreme Court within thirty days after the filing thereof. If the appellant establishes that the final plan is contrary to law, the Supreme Court shall issue an order remanding the plan to the commission and directing the commission to reapportion the Commonwealth in a manner not inconsistent with such order.

(e) When the Supreme Court has finally decided an appeal or when the last day for filing an appeal has passed with no appeal taken, the reapportionment plan shall have the force of law and the districts therein provided shall be used thereafter in elections to the General Assembly until the next reapportionment as required under this section 17.

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The Mark said:

That's the...kinda/sorta...weakness of the courts - their hands are mostly tied, until someone or multiple someones challenges a thing.

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Could be. But it seems to me if someone figures the districts were gerrymandered unconstitutionally today, wouldn't they also figure the same thing 8 years. File their suit then instead of last year. Something seems askew in this whole late affair. What that is outside of the time it took, I can't put my hands on it.

Perotista said:

Could be. But it seems to me if someone figures the districts were gerrymandered unconstitutionally today, wouldn't they also figure the same thing 8 years. File their suit then instead of last year. Something seems askew in this whole late affair. What that is outside of the time it took, I can't put my hands on it.

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I think people relied on the democratic party to do that.

And they apparently didn't, as I've thus far been unable to find a mention of challenges against the plan.

Fishking said:

It's not a deflection but a fact, and the fact is the PA Supreme Court approved of the current districts in 2013. That gave the current districts full legal standing. There is no provision for the PA Supreme Court to go back and re-litigate it. They have to wait until 2020 when there will be the next census. In other words, the PA Supreme Court shouldn't even be looking at it and it is actually they are are way out of line.

The pertinent information can be found in the Pennsylvania in Article II, Section 17, subsections (c) through (e), where subsection (e) is the most relevant part of the regulation.

https://ballotpedia.org/Article_II,_Pennsylvania_Constitution

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Is this some sort of...constitutional crisis or...conflict, then?

I mean, assuming that the SCOPA is correct, and the current map is unconstitutional, it should be replaced.
Yet, a strict reading of the constitution of PA seems to say that we're not allowed to redraw district maps this long after they've been approved - at least until after the next Census, which would mean the next district map would be drawn in 2021 and approved for the 2022 elections.


Seems to me we need to redraw the map ASAP, but at the very least it MUST be redrawn before the next census.

I mean, if it's actually unconstitutional (and it absolutely does set up a situation where Republicans hold more seats than the # of votes they get should indicate - 15-20% more, or something), then the 2012, 2014, and 2016 elections for US House included to some degree a form of legal voter suppression...or at least intentional disenfranchisement of a sort.

Does that significant problem override the PA Constitution when it says we can't change it until after the next Census?

Damnit, I'm don't know this legal stuff that well...

The Mark said:

I think people relied on the democratic party to do that.

And they apparently didn't, as I've thus far been unable to find a mention of challenges against the plan.

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One would think the Democratic Party wouldn't wait 8 years before filing suit. Actually come to think of it, there has been only 3 elections on the current drawn map, 2012, 14 and 16. Two more to come, 2018 and 20. The new 2020 census and new map won't take effect until the 2022 election. So, perhaps better late than never.

Now someone had to file suit. At least I think someone had to before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court would rule. Then again I wonder if the suit would have to go through different levels of the Pennsylvania court system which could take some time.

The Mark said:

Is this some sort of...constitutional crisis or...conflict, then?

I mean, assuming that the SCOPA is correct, and the current map is unconstitutional, it should be replaced.
Yet, a strict reading of the constitution of PA seems to say that we're not allowed to redraw district maps this long after they've been approved - at least until after the next Census, which would mean the next district map would be drawn in 2021 and approved for the 2022 elections.


Seems to me we need to redraw the map ASAP, but at the very least it MUST be redrawn before the next census.

I mean, if it's actually unconstitutional (and it absolutely does set up a situation where Republicans hold more seats than the # of votes they get should indicate - 15-20% more, or something), then the 2012, 2014, and 2016 elections for US House included to some degree a form of legal voter suppression...or at least intentional disenfranchisement of a sort.

Does that significant problem override the PA Constitution when it says we can't change it until after the next Census?

Damnit, I'm don't know this legal stuff that well...

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There is no need to redraw the current map. It was already ruled as constitutional by the PA Supreme Court in 2013. It has already been litigated. The next time for it to be litigated is with the next federal census.

Perotista said:

One would think the Democratic Party wouldn't wait 8 years before filing suit. Actually come to think of it, there has been only 3 elections on the current drawn map, 2012, 14 and 16. Two more to come, 2018 and 20. The new 2020 census and new map won't take effect until the 2022 election. So, perhaps better late than never.

Now someone had to file suit. At least I think someone had to before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court would rule. Then again I wonder if the suit would have to go through different levels of the Pennsylvania court system which could take some time.

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The League of Women Voters filed suit - not the democratic party, although I would guess they are in some sense allies.

Specifically:

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF
PENNSYLVANIA, CARMEN FEBO SAN
MIGUEL, JAMES SOLOMON, JOHN
GREINER, JOHN CAPOWSKI,
GRETCHEN BRANDT, THOMAS
RENTSCHLER, MARY ELIZABETH
LAWN, LISA ISAACS, DON LANCASTER,
JORDI COMAS, ROBERT SMITH,
WILLIAM MARX, RICHARD MANTELL,
PRISCILLA MCNULTY, THOMAS
ULRICH, ROBERT MCKINSTRY, MARK
LICHTY, LORRAINE PETROSKY,
Petitioners

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Perotista said:

One would think the Democratic Party wouldn't wait 8 years before filing suit. Actually come to think of it, there has been only 3 elections on the current drawn map, 2012, 14 and 16. Two more to come, 2018 and 20. The new 2020 census and new map won't take effect until the 2022 election. So, perhaps better late than never.

Now someone had to file suit. At least I think someone had to before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court would rule. Then again I wonder if the suit would have to go through different levels of the Pennsylvania court system which could take some time.

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I apparently missed this:

http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinions/Supreme/out/j-99-111-2012mo.pdf#search="Congressional District map%22

Seems to indicate that there was much appeal and fighting over the plan, last time.

I wonder if they just didn't realize how bad it was, somehow...

Edit: The court, as well as those appealing.

Fishking said:

There is no need to redraw the current map. It was already ruled as constitutional by the PA Supreme Court in 2013. It has already been litigated. The next time for it to be litigated is with the next federal census.

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That is what strikes me as odd about this - why, if the map is unconstitutional now, did they rule it constitutional then?

At least one ruling is obviously wrong.

BTW this is apparently the 2013 ruling you spoke of: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinions/Supreme/out/j-99-111-2012mo.pdf#search="Congressional