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New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

apdst said:
Then you aren't in a position to make demands on what people should do. There's nothing wring with s9meone excercising their natural rights.
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I can't force them to do anything, I am certainly in a position to state my opinions on the situation. That's why we're all here after all. You don't have to agree and I don't care if you do.
 
Cephus said:
Now take those words and reason out how you got from what I said to what you responded. There's a serious disconnect there.
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You're not saying that you, as an atheist, are smarter than a deist?
I'll have to look back in history, straighten myself out.
 
Cephus said:
My statement was in relation to religion period, not any specific practices.
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Your statement was off topic then, as well as being ignorant.
 
Peter King said:
Well, it is the information/date provided by the Center Information and Documentation Israel (CIDI). Now the real numbers can be a bit higher because some people do not report but not to that level that it is way way higher than the report from CIDI infers.
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Wrong. The CDI report clearly states that 109 anti-semitic events occurred in the Netherlands in 2016.

You are only counting physical violence.
 
Blue_State said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/31/world/europe/netherlands-kosher-halal-animal-rights.html

War on religion? Do you think they will try to regulate small farms as well?

I believe this is the war on religion and that these actions will be coming to America.
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There is a lot of irony in declaring slaughter to be a religious exercise. This is not a war on religion.

I, for one, am tired of religion being an excuse to be cruel, dumb or apathetic to rational governance.
 
cuban smokes said:
I have heard it from nearly every Protestant denomination & from the Catholic faith that the Old & New Testaments are inseparable so, everyone just pick & choose which 'laws' to uphold & which 'laws' to deny
Besides the point, if the god of The Bible is perfect as claimed then why would there be a need for a New Testament? The Old should contain perfection & it says to stone unmarried, non virgins to death.
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I never said they were inseparable. I am not the one separating them, atheists are. All the laws of the old Testament still exist, but in the New Testament Jesus taught his followers that it was their job to police the laws as we are all sinners and as such shouldn't pass judgment on one another, let alone mete out punishment.

By only sighting the law as it was spelled out in the old testament you are missing the most integral part of what it is to be a Christian: Jesus. The New Testament profoundly changes the relationship between God and humanity and how scriptural law is to be applied. Namely, it isn't our job anymore to apply the law to others, it is only our job to apply the law to ourselves.
 
LaylaWindu said:
I don't think it's a war on religion at all but that also doesn't mean I support it either. Based on the article if kosher is " animals are conscious and healthy" I guess my question is how are 100s of millions of animals slaughtered. Im sure its not a matter of "healthy" but its a matter of "conscious" . .

That really doesn't bother me either way if they are or aren't conscious but if that's the sticking point I certainly don;t see that as a war on religion, it simply a disagreement between animal activists and people who don't really care. So IMO if somebody wants to have a farm that does it to conscious animals that is fine by me but nobody should be forced to do so or forced not to do so unless some other rational argument can be made?

Is there a rational argument to not allow the animals to be conscious?
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So much depends on where an animal is slaughtered. In the US we have some "processing" plants using a system designed by Temple Grandin for cattle. Those IMHO are ok. Others are not done as well. Also depends on the animal. The idea that the animals slaughtered here are not conscious can be pretty misleading.
In some ways, the manner in which an animal is slaughtered for kosher or muslim purposes may actually be kinder than the way it's normally done in the US.
 
MrWonka said:
Your right ends, when they interfere with the rights of others. Whether you like it or not animals do have them. They may not be the same as ours, but they exist, and you can't just flaunt them because you think an invisible magic sky giant said so.



Nope, you don't get to ignore the old testemant when it's inconvenient for you. It's a part of your bible whether you like it or not. What do you think god just got things wrong in the old testement, but then Jesus came along to correct it all? If god can be wrong once, he can be wrong again.


No, as defined by the majority of people on the planet as well as scientific fact. No decent human being wants to see animals put through unnecessary pain and suffering. If there is no scientific justification for the necesity of kosher meat, and kosher practices do in fact inflict unnecessary suffering on an animal, then your rights in this area are void.



Animals have rights too.
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Where do animal rights come from? Is there some document?
 
MrWonka said:
Your right ends, when they interfere with the rights of others. Whether you like it or not animals do have them. They may not be the same as ours, but they exist, and you can't just flaunt them because you think an invisible magic sky giant said so.
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Oh, broooooother. Your argument is self defeating. The choice to make a food animal's rights greater than those of a human being is simply imposing your beliefs on others. You are the monster you fear.

Nope, you don't get to ignore the old testemant when it's inconvenient for you. It's a part of your bible whether you like it or not. What do you think god just got things wrong in the old testement, but then Jesus came along to correct it all? If god can be wrong once, he can be wrong again.
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It may come as a shock to you, but Christians adhere to the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus begin in the New Testament. Tell me what Jesus said about how we Christians are supposed to honor and uphold the law.

No, as defined by the majority of people on the planet as well as scientific fact. No decent human being wants to see animals put through unnecessary pain and suffering. If there is no scientific justification for the necessity of kosher meat, and kosher practices do in fact inflict unnecessary suffering on an animal, then your rights in this area are void.
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It never fails that the more dictatorial atheists are the least learned on the subject of faith AND science they really are... and pretty much everything else related to the subject at hand. Kosher Shechita (and Halal zabiha) are less distressing to an animal than the electric shock used to knock out non-kosher animals for slaughter, and certainly more than from fishing or hunting.

Animals have rights too.
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LOL! So in your argument the "people" you refer to are actually livestock? :roll:
 
Blue_State said:
Where do animal rights come from? Is there some document?
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https://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/animal-welfare-act

I believe this is the only federal document. There may be additional state laws, but there doesn't really need to be a specific document. The point here is that there is nothing that would prevent the passage of a law which protected animals. If a federal law or even a state law buts heads with a specific religious practice then the law wins. The only thing that would prevent that is if you can demonstrate that disparraging or promoting a specific religion is the primary motivation behind the law. If there are valid justifications for the law, and it happens but heads with a specific religions practice too bad so sad.

I mean if I invented a religion and as a part of that religion I declared that on Fridays in the spring church members were only allowed to eat bald eagles that would clearly not fly in the United States of America.
 
jmotivator said:
The choice to make a food animal's rights greater than those of a human being is simply imposing your beliefs on others. You are the monster you fear.
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Beliefs based on Scientific fact and majority rule are not the same as your wild fantasy book. All laws that are passed restrict certain freedoms based upon the belief of the Majority. So long as you have sound reasoning behind them, and they are grounded in reality they are acceptable whether you like them or not.

jmotivator said:
It may come as a shock to you, but Christians adhere to the teachings of Jesus.
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The old testament exists. Christians didn't throw it away, and they still use it as the basis for all kinds of other silly nonsensical beliefs.

jmotivator said:
The teachings of Jesus begin in the New Testament. Tell me what Jesus said about how we Christians are supposed to honor and uphold the law.
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Jesus said:
God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4
Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17
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So, yeah turns out Jesus explicitly command you to treat the old testement as viable law.


jmotivator said:
Kosher Shechita[/URL] (and Halal zabiha) are less distressing to an animal than the electric shock used to knock out non-kosher animals for slaughter, and certainly more than from fishing or hunting.
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Sounds like an opinion to me, but hey if it's true then you have nothing to worry about.

jmotivator said:
LOL! So in your argument the "people" you refer to are actually livestock? :roll:
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Two completely different arguments. The point is simply that ones religious practices can and often are restricted when they infringe upon the rights of someone else. That goes for animals as well.
 
Cephus said:
Unfortunately, it's clear that you had no idea what the words I typed meant. Maybe that says something.
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We are well aware of what you think of people with religious beliefs. More than well aware of that. And this OP is basically about permitting a religious group, not a small minority eat meats that have been slaughtered according to their religious beliefs.

So if all you have is denigrating people & religious beliefs, then why not start your own thread.


Next- animals being prepared for slaughter if stressed causes the animal to suffer and does affect the quality of the meats.
Any animal ill or injured is not permitted to be slaughtered and does not meet the retirements of Kosher beef, fowl and such.
Unlike our mass produced slaughterhouses that are at times not at all fussy about sick, ill or infected animals.

Read up on Kosher foods, rules and such.
What is Kosher Food, Kosher Rules, Products, Definition, What Does Kosher Mean
 
jghiretire said:
So much depends on where an animal is slaughtered. In the US we have some "processing" plants using a system designed by Temple Grandin for cattle. Those IMHO are ok. Others are not done as well. Also depends on the animal. The idea that the animals slaughtered here are not conscious can be pretty misleading.
In some ways, the manner in which an animal is slaughtered for kosher or muslim purposes may actually be kinder than the way it's normally done in the US.
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Many are not aware of her so I added a link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin
 
Gill said:
Wrong. The CDI report clearly states that 109 anti-semitic events occurred in the Netherlands in 2016.

You are only counting physical violence.
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Three violent incidents as said, one between 2 fellow employees in which one calls the other a derogatory term for Jew and after a work place intervention after the Jewish employee went to his supervisor (who organized a talk between the two were the one who made the derogatory comment claims his innocence) escalated after work time when the man who made the derogatory comments headbutted the Jewish person and kicked him.

Second incident is a son of a Jewish Dutch person who is attacked after getting ice cream for him being Jewish, he is hit and kicked and need to go to hospital for treatment.

The third incident is the worst one, a Jewish couple is attacked and both are seriously hurt. More details are unknown due to the ongoing police investigation.


There were 4 cases of threats of violence.

25 incidents of verbal abuses:

- A man with a yarmulke is seen walking through The Hague when 2 Arabic looking boys say to him: "Hey Jew!Or are you Palestinian? Free Free Palestine. Takbir! Takbir! Stop the occupation

- Two men disturb the National Memorial of the second world war when 2 people shout Heil Hitler and bring the nazi salute.

There are a few instances with people being called ****ing Jews, a few nazi salutes, holocaust denials, incident for incident disgusting depraved behavior by the perpetrators.

Do not get me wrong, all of these incidents are deeply disturbing.
 
JANFU said:
We are well aware of what you think of people with religious beliefs. More than well aware of that. And this OP is basically about permitting a religious group, not a small minority eat meats that have been slaughtered according to their religious beliefs.

So if all you have is denigrating people & religious beliefs, then why not start your own thread.
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Because there's no point. The whole point ought to be about improving society overall, not catering to people living in the middle ages. The idea that "I believe in an imaginary man in the sky, therefore I shouldn't have to follow the same laws as everyone else" is absurd.
 
MrWonka said:
https://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/animal-welfare-act

I believe this is the only federal document. There may be additional state laws, but there doesn't really need to be a specific document. The point here is that there is nothing that would prevent the passage of a law which protected animals. If a federal law or even a state law buts heads with a specific religious practice then the law wins. The only thing that would prevent that is if you can demonstrate that disparraging or promoting a specific religion is the primary motivation behind the law. If there are valid justifications for the law, and it happens but heads with a specific religions practice too bad so sad.

I mean if I invented a religion and as a part of that religion I declared that on Fridays in the spring church members were only allowed to eat bald eagles that would clearly not fly in the United States of America.
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You believe that document gives animals rights?
 
Cephus said:
Because there's no point. The whole point ought to be about improving society overall, not catering to people living in the middle ages. The idea that "I believe in an imaginary man in the sky, therefore I shouldn't have to follow the same laws as everyone else" is absurd.
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Well all developed Democracies have Freedom of Religion. And Jews have been practicing their Religion for thousands of years. Christianity & Islam are new on the block.
So they are not creating harm, so no harm, no fowl.
 
D_NATURED said:
There is a lot of irony in declaring slaughter to be a religious exercise. This is not a war on religion.

I, for one, am tired of religion being an excuse to be cruel, dumb or apathetic to rational governance.
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^^^
This
 
JANFU said:
Well all developed Democracies have Freedom of Religion. And Jews have been practicing their Religion for thousands of years. Christianity & Islam are new on the block.
So they are not creating harm, so no harm, no fowl.
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Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from responsibility of following the law. If I made up a religion that said I got to murder people at random in the street, I'd absolutely not have the freedom to practice it. It's about time these people, and all people, grew the hell up and lived in the real world, not the fantasy land they wish was real.
 
Cephus said:
Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from responsibility of following the law. If I made up a religion that said I got to murder people at random in the street, I'd absolutely not have the freedom to practice it. It's about time these people, and all people, grew the hell up and lived in the real world, not the fantasy land they wish was real.
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Such a reasonable comparison. You are letting your hatred of religion cloud your thinking.
 
MrWonka said:
Beliefs based on Scientific fact and majority rule are not the same as your wild fantasy book.
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What science wold that be, and are you SURE you want to go with that "majority rule" line? That has a way of biting you in the ass.

All laws that are passed restrict certain freedoms based upon the belief of the Majority. So long as you have sound reasoning behind them, and they are grounded in reality they are acceptable whether you like them or not.
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LOL. No. Not all laws are based upon the beliefs of the majority.. or you should hope they aren't. In a Constitutional Republic the only majority that matters in passing a law is among among elected representatives who may or may not represent their constituents on all matters.

Your "so long as they have sound reasoning" line is also laughably naive, and I bet there are a legion of bills passed that don't meet any of your silly criteria, and a number of laws that you hate that were supported by the majority.

The old testament exists. Christians didn't throw it away, and they still use it as the basis for all kinds of other silly nonsensical beliefs.
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Again, you don't actually know what the Bible is, the purpose for the OLD and NEW Testaments, or what Jesus actually taught his followers about how to interprate the OLD Testament. Your foot stomping and expressed ignorance isn't a winning strategy for you.

Again I ask: What did Jesus say about how to follow God's law? What are Chistians actually instructed by Jesus to do with those old laws?

I'll help you out with the New Testament passage that deals specifically with adultery, the old Testament proscription that you ignorantly chose to use as an example: What did Jesus tell the crowd who was planning to stone the woman for adultery? What happened to the woman?

Now, what did Jesus teach his followers about old Testament laws on dress code and proscribed foods?

Do you know the answers to these questions? Any self respecting atheist who claims to understand Christianity should know the answers to these two simple questions.


So, yeah turns out Jesus explicitly command you to treat the old testement as viable law.
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And how are you supposed to follow that law? Does he command Christians to enforce that law on others?

Sounds like an opinion to me, but hey if it's true then you have nothing to worry about.
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What is the death that Matthew and Mark speak of? (Hint: Christianity believes in an ever lasting life) Who carries out that death sentence?

This is a bit more involved than the two easier questions I posed to you earlier, but it is still Christianity 101 level material. You should know this if you know Christianity.

Two completely different arguments. The point is simply that ones religious practices can and often are restricted when they infringe upon the rights of someone else. That goes for animals as well.
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So when you said that these laws hurt "people" were you talking about people or were you talking about livestock? Here is your quote again:

MrWonka said:
If your religion is ordering you to cause unnecessary harm to innocent people that have done nothing to hurt you then it's your religions problem.
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To which I asked who those "people" are to which you responded "Animals have rights too".... so are you talking PEOPLE or livestock?
 
Cephus said:
Except religion can't help but cloud and control the lives of the adherent, at least to some degree.
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Well, I do know several Christians and Muslims out there who do not agree with everything their holy book says, and tries to judge things using their own individual thoughts.
 
JANFU said:
We are well aware of what you think of people with religious beliefs. More than well aware of that. And this OP is basically about permitting a religious group, not a small minority eat meats that have been slaughtered according to their religious beliefs.

So if all you have is denigrating people & religious beliefs, then why not start your own thread.


Next- animals being prepared for slaughter if stressed causes the animal to suffer and does affect the quality of the meats.
Any animal ill or injured is not permitted to be slaughtered and does not meet the retirements of Kosher beef, fowl and such.
Unlike our mass produced slaughterhouses that are at times not at all fussy about sick, ill or infected animals.

Read up on Kosher foods, rules and such.
What is Kosher Food, Kosher Rules, Products, Definition, What Does Kosher Mean
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Yeah, in fact Kosher and Halal butchery is what really gave mankind a taste for humanely killed animals. An animal killed while in distress is very gamey as the muscle still holds the adrenaline that was running through them at the time of death. You can tell the skill of a bow hunter by their product for that reason.

If you really want to take a stand for humane treatment of livestock then kosher and halal are the last places to look. I would start with the horrors of South Easter medicine first, where some "cures" using animal remains require that the animal die in a state of panic. I once knew a woman from Thailand who was prescribed a daily dose of parakeet for her depression by an Chinese doctor who used old Chinese medicines... the thing was he would burn the parakeets alive in a kiln because it was believed that the adrenaline of a bird was a cure for depression, and that a bird needed to die while hopped up on adrenaline for it to be effective.
 
Soopairik said:
Well, I do know several Christians and Muslims out there who do not agree with everything their holy book says, and tries to judge things using their own individual thoughts.
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That's why there are more than 42,000 distinct sects of Christianity and 72 sects of Islam. Because nobody can actually agree what their silly books say in black and white. Unfortunately, the more religious you are, the less likely you are to think outside of the box. There are plenty of Christians and Muslims who play along with being religious from a social standpoint, but don't really pay much attention to what they're supposed to believe.
 
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