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Thread: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Oh, broooooother. Your argument is self defeating. The choice to make a food animal's rights greater than those of a human being is simply imposing your beliefs on others. You are the monster you fear.
    Actually, this is not a question of human verses animal rights, this is a question of animal rights verses god, for lack of a better description. Clearly you think that someone claiming to believe in an arbitrary superstition endows believers with the right to be cruel. I disagree. There is an attitude amongst many of the faithful that their own hyperbolic spiritual entitlement includes not just free rein to proselytize and lie to everyone but that their entitlement extends to acts of violence.

    I have a limit for how much I will patronize the magical hysteria of theists. That limit is harm. When a person feels they have a right to beliefs that are contradicted by established science, they are choosing an anti- intellectual god. When they feel authorized to ignore evolved moral processes in society, they have chosen an ethically ambivalent god. When they persist in practices, based upon traditions, with no concern about whether it is cruel, only whether it complies with the dictates of arbitrary faith, they have chosen a cruel god.

    I am constantly stunned by the unapologetic idiocy of those who claim a higher power is theirs. If the spiritual anachronisms of our time can only gather meaning from the past, they are sentencing the rest of us to a dark future. To them I ask what kind of loving god would demand that we stagnate in a changing universe?

    I'll tell you what kind, an imaginary one.

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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    Actually, this is not a question of human verses animal rights, this is a question of animal rights verses god, for lack of a better description.
    Your argument is self defeating. The claim by those opposing this law is that it is an attack on religion. Your defense of the law is "Religion is stupit! THer is no god!" .... so good job proving our point!


    Clearly you think that someone claiming to believe in an arbitrary superstition endows believers with the right to be cruel. I disagree. There is an attitude amongst many of the faithful that their own hyperbolic spiritual entitlement includes not just free rein to proselytize and lie to everyone but that their entitlement extends to acts of violence.
    Clearly you build some awful straw men. Kosher butchery isn't cruel. When done properly the animal is rendered unconscious immediately, and dies shortly thereafter. The modern way is zapping it with electricity to incapacitate it and drive a metal spike into its brain. Is that more humane? The whole point of kosher preparation is to cleanly and humanely kill and butcher an animal. Your hatred for religion has made you ignorant of actual facts... again.

    I have a limit for how much I will patr... blah blah blah
    Did you say something?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by JMaximus View Post
    Probably should avoid commercial meat altogether then...

    Either way, though, it's your choice. Others choose differently. And on this matter, at least, no one has offered any compelling reason why that choice should be restricted in the manner proposed by the Dutch laws.
    Nah, commercial meat is fine here. And animal welfare and food safety are the compelling reasons why the law is the way it is.
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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Morning Peter
    No, some have decided. If it did indeed create so much harm it would be prohibited. I am sure that Jews, Muslims, Christians and others have the freedom to practice their religion without State interference.
    No, the elected officials as voted by the public have decided this. Also, society in the Netherlands has no issue with respecting religious rights but not at the expense of food safety or animal welfare.
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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    No, there is an evolving moral sense among our kind that ultimately attempts to minimize suffering, even in those beings we intend to consume. Yet, once again, the holy spokesmen for the super natural fail to understand that religion is not a license to perpetuate a traditional stupidity, it is our duty as spiritual beings to oppose it.
    I wonder what other parts of the Constitution you would send to the dust bin?
    I take it you live in a country that has freedom of religion, and protections? Yes- No-
    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    I hope to die in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like my grandfather's passengers.

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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    No, the elected officials as voted by the public have decided this. Also, society in the Netherlands has no issue with respecting religious rights but not at the expense of food safety or animal welfare.
    How many cases of contaminated meats from Kosher-Halal butchers?
    And from a quick search the EU Court of Justice is hearing cases on Wallonias banning of Kosher slaughter?

    https://halalfocus.net/eu-slaughter-...-adviser-says/
    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    I hope to die in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like my grandfather's passengers.

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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    How many cases of contaminated meats from Kosher-Halal butchers?
    And from a quick search the EU Court of Justice is hearing cases on Wallonias banning of Kosher slaughter?

    https://halalfocus.net/eu-slaughter-...-adviser-says/
    Well, we are not Wallonia or Vlaanderen (Flemish). Well the UK had a lot of issues of fake Halal meats, crooks are everywhere. Also people need to be properly trained and in the past that has not always been the case.
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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Well, we are not Wallonia or Vlaanderen (Flemish). Well the UK had a lot of issues of fake Halal meats, crooks are everywhere. Also people need to be properly trained and in the past that has not always been the case.
    And the same from regular meat suppliers. IIRC there was an issue in the EU of horse meat being used as a sub for other products.
    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    I hope to die in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like my grandfather's passengers.

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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    And the same from regular meat suppliers. IIRC there was an issue in the EU of horse meat being used as a sub for other products.
    Yup, but that was fraud/illegal so not something regularly done by slaughter houses but by crooked traders.

    The guy was sentenced to 2.5 years in jail. He had to pay a fine and the prosecution is waiting until the appeals process is over before they start "fleecing" him, the money he has gained from his illegal trading will be taken from him, if he does not have that kind of money his house, cars, valuables, etc. etc. etc. will be seized and sold.

    After his company was closed, there was a huge stock of meat he was planning to sell as beef (even though it was horse) and due a medication (fenylbutazon) for horses that was found in the meat, it was deemed unfit for human consumption so it was sold for zoo animal consumption and for other meat eating animals.

    The biggest issue the Dutch authorities was that he tainted the trust of people in the meat trade and that is something the government greatly disapproved of. People have to trust their food production and people who taint that will be prosecuted and fleeced off their criminal profits.
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    Re: New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Your argument is self defeating. The claim by those opposing this law is that it is an attack on religion. Your defense of the law is "Religion is stupit! THer is no god!" .... so good job proving our point!
    Keep laughing, it makes you look silly not to see the obvious. Namely, that there is a difference between attacking religion and attacking cruelty. If you can't separate your religion from cruelty, you prove MY point, that religion is ****. Checkmate.

    Clearly you build some awful straw men.
    Calling the truth awful doesn't make it a lie. You have already established that you believe the faithful should have a right to slaughter animals in a more cruel way, strictly because of their faith. What is awful is your ability to refute my point that the religious feel entitled to cruelty.

    Kosher butchery isn't cruel. When done properly the animal is rendered unconscious immediately, and dies shortly thereafter. The modern way is zapping it with electricity to incapacitate it and drive a metal spike into its brain. Is that more humane?
    Possibly, but until we find proof that one way is better than others, we should consider the opinions of veterinarians or ranchers rather than clergy. What I can't stomach is the idea that an animal should suffer more than necessary because the religious demand a double standard in all things.

    The whole point of kosher preparation is to cleanly and humanely kill and butcher an animal. Your hatred for religion has made you ignorant of actual facts... again.
    Yeah, well your hatred for modern technology has made you ignorant in general. Religion is NOT a source of exemption from any law...or shouldn't be.


    Did you say something?
    Yes, and it obviously cut deep.

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