• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump withholding millions in aid to Pakistan, as he accuses country of giving 'safe haven' to terro

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nobody alive in World War 2 was alive 3000 years ago. They had no right to ownership of that land. The Palestinians lived there for generations and were displaced by migrating Jews. Don't be daft, the Jews settling the land were 100% migrants, by the very definition of the word.

Those refugees you keep supporting where manual laborers from Syria and Egypt brought in by the British during the Mandate. Stop promulgating a myth. They did not live there for generations.

Moreover it was Arab Sheiks who sold land in Israel to Jews since the migrations from Russia and Germany started during the late 1800's. Arab Sheiks, who often did not own the land they sold, buying that land to sell it at inflated prices to Jews.

Learn some real history, prior to WWI the entire population of all Ottoman Palestine, including modern day Jordan, Gaza, half of Lebanon, Golan, parts of the Sinai and Aqaba regions, was 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews as of a 1914 census. That included an estimate of more than 200k nomadic Bedouin, the greatest threat faced by Jerusalem which suffered their raids out of the desert. The Ottomans, when turning over the Mandate to the British, admitted they deliberately undercounted the Jewish population during that census by at least 200k because "Jews are not people." Concurrently 3% of all of Turkey was Jewish (not now). Furthermore, the Ottomans did not include non-Arab Christians in the census because "they were infidel foreigners." They also didn't include an estimated 40k Samaritans whose ancestors had been in the region when the 12 Tribes were shepherds in deserts, because they were "the human embodiment of Satan." Mohamed's "Children of the Book" to be feared and untouched.

BTW, the Bedouin claim none who claim to be Arab are not Arab unless they are Bedouin, the only Arabs.

Perhaps you also support Erdogan's latest missive, "All Christians are unwelcome and should consider leaving Turkey." 20% of Turkey's population was Christian in 1914. Now it is 2.5%. The so-called Palestinian refugees celebrated Erdogan's statement. Nice friends you have.
 
Your history citation just conveniently glosses over the fact that for the entire existence of the tribal nations they were killing each other, conquering lands, taking slaves, engaged in cannibalism, and all manner of period appropriate behaviors. Nope...your history citations says for thousands of years there were Indians....and then the Europeans came in and took everything.

How do you think the 5 nations were formed in New York? How do you think the Cherokee emerged as dominant in the east? Or the Crow in the plains? Hell they have unearthed mass graves containing what is exepcted to be entire tribal populations in the 12 and 1300s.

Every land throughout time has been formed by conquest. The historical relevance of who lived somewhere 'then' makes for great reading...but not much else.

Right, so it's okay for people to steal land from other people simply because they have the means forcibly overcome the owners ability to defend it. No, it's not okay, regardless of whether or not is the reality. If someone did this to you, you would not be so glib about it.
 
You are correct. There has been a Jewish presence there for thousands of years. There was also a very large (around 90%) non-Jewish presence there (mainly Muslim and Christian). Prior to the Balfour Declaration non-Jews constituted the overwhelming majority of the population in Palestine. From the late 1800's to around 1914 approximately 75,000 Jews had migrated to Palestine (mostly from Europe). After the Balfour declaration up to the point when the mandate ended and the Brits moved out, well over 750,000 Jews were allowed to migrate (from all over the world) to Palestine and settle the land.

Those 750,000 had no legal claim to those lands except through the authority of the British government. It resulted in hundreds of thousands of non-Jews being displaced in favor the Jewish immigrants. And to this day, Israeli Jews continue to illegally settle land that does not belong to them. To the point the Israeli government has had to take legal action to stop the settlement in some areas.

Please understand, this isn't me being an anti-semite or anti-zionist, I'm anti-land theft. The U.S. should have never legitimized this action. We would never allow native Americans, who clearly draw a more direct and time relevant connection, to come in and force the ancestors of white Europeans out of their homes so they could "return to their homeland." The thought would considered insane. But we made a very un-American decision to legitimize the Zionist movement to occupy the land known as Palestine and take it from the people already living there. In any other case we would have been outraged, and rightfully so.

Do you really think the Balfour declaration meant anything to the Jews of Germany, Russia and Poland fleeing pograms? Do you really think many of them had even heard of the Balfour declaration?

No, you are an antisemite anti zionist. Your words betray you. You want to disprove me, show me the deed for your home to Native Americans.
 
Those refugees you keep supporting where manual laborers from Syria and Egypt brought in by the British during the Mandate. Stop promulgating a myth. They did not live there for generations.

Moreover it was Arab Sheiks who sold land in Israel to Jews since the migrations from Russia and Germany started during the late 1800's. Arab Sheiks, who often did not own the land they sold, buying that land to sell it at inflated prices to Jews.

Learn some real history, prior to WWI the entire population of all Ottoman Palestine, including modern day Jordan, Gaza, half of Lebanon, Golan, parts of the Sinai and Aqaba regions, was 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews as of a 1914 census. That included an estimate of more than 200k nomadic Bedouin, the greatest threat faced by Jerusalem which suffered their raids out of the desert. The Ottomans, when turning over the Mandate to the British, admitted they deliberately undercounted the Jewish population during that census by at least 200k because "Jews are not people." Concurrently 3% of all of Turkey was Jewish (not now). Furthermore, the Ottomans did not include non-Arab Christians in the census because "they were infidel foreigners." They also didn't include an estimated 40k Samaritans whose ancestors had been in the region when the 12 Tribes were shepherds in deserts, because they were "the human embodiment of Satan." Mohamed's "Children of the Book" to be feared and untouched.

BTW, the Bedouin claim none who claim to be Arab are not Arab unless they are Bedouin, the only Arabs.

Perhaps you also support Erdogan's latest missive, "All Christians are unwelcome and should consider leaving Turkey." 20% of Turkey's population was Christian in 1914. Now it is 2.5%. The so-called Palestinian refugees celebrated Erdogan's statement. Nice friends you have.

They absolutely did live there for generations. The lines that were conveniently drawn up by white European conquerors do not erase the historical rights of those who lived and worked that land prior to 1948. How very foolish of you to say such nonsense.

None of your statement erases the fact that Jews were allowed, even encouraged, to migrate from all over the world to settle Palestine. And that is exactly what happened. At the expense of the non-Jews, specifically the Muslims who lived there. Don't try to pass your crap off as justification for what took place. "Real history." What a joke.
 
Right, so it's okay for people to steal land from other people simply because they have the means forcibly overcome the owners ability to defend it. No, it's not okay, regardless of whether or not is the reality. If someone did this to you, you would not be so glib about it.
Its not a question of OK...its a question of historical reality. FFS...do you understand history? Can you point to a country, society, or people that were not formed by conquest at some point in their existence?
 
Do you really think the Balfour declaration meant anything to the Jews of Germany, Russia and Poland fleeing pograms? Do you really think many of them had even heard of the Balfour declaration?

No, you are an antisemite anti zionist. Your words betray you. You want to disprove me, show me the deed for your home to Native Americans.

The Balfour Declaration meant everything to them, because it was a message that legitimized the creation of a Jewish homeland and gave them a place to go. It was not, however, the only proposal that was on the board. Jewish and British leaders were considering multiple other locations for resettling Jewish refugees prior to the outbreak of war in 1940.

Don't act like you know anything about me. Just because you are unable separate issues properly in your own mind doesn't mean I am not. Your complete disdain for the people who lost their homes and land during the resettlement speaks a great deal about your flawed character. Just because the victors write the history doesn't make the story complete or truthful.

It is absolutely possible for a rations person to sympathize with both the Jews and the Palestinians. Both have suffered immeasurably over the years, but two wrongs don't make a right.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
Its not a question of OK...its a question of historical reality. FFS...do you understand history? Can you point to a country, society, or people that were not formed by conquest at some point in their existence?

Don't overthink my statement.
 
Pakistan is not what I would consider a reliable ally. I agree with that and have spoken of my concerns here in the past.

What I am not a fan of, (nor can I imagine I will ever be), is President Trumps attempts at diplomacy via rants on twitter. Social media is not the platform for a leader of one Country to address the other.

I expect Pakistan feels the same way about the US regarding the US as being a reliable ally

China has been far more reliable an ally to Pakistan than the US has been over the last 50 years or so. More so out of shared strategic issues (re India). I expect that Pakistan believes the US has zero concerns regarding Pakistan and what it considers strategically important to it. Ie using Afghanistan for strategic depth in case of conflict with India.

Until the US shows consideration towards what Pakistan feels is important to its defense Pakistan will only pay lip service towards what the US feels is important to it. After all without Pakistan, the US forces in Afghanistan will be far harder to supply and rotate. The costs will go up for logistics
 
LOL...You old grumpy conservatives seem to hate the world.....

The operative word being 'old'...with the experience to know what I'm talking about.
I don't hate the world, but I don't like the idea of paying people to screw us all so, F&%K 'em.
 
Pakistan has already decided to bring in China to replace the USA:

China Military Base In Pakistan | The Daily Caller

A Chinese naval base at the mouth of the Straits of Hormuz, the world's most sensitive strategic chokepoint, through which a huge amount of maritime oil traffic passes, is about to become Pakistan's biggest backstab yet to America.

China-Pakistan-Shuttetstock-esfera-Shutterstock-Tony-albelton.jpg

Gwadar is about 1000 miles from the Straits of Hormus, certainly not at the mouth of it

Overall China and Pakistan have been better allies towards each other than the US and Pakistan for decades
 
The Balfour Declaration meant everything to them, because it was a message that legitimized the creation of a Jewish homeland and gave them a place to go. It was not, however, the only proposal that was on the board. Jewish and British leaders were considering multiple other locations for resettling Jewish refugees prior to the outbreak of war in 1940.

Don't act like you know anything about me. Just because you are unable separate issues properly in your own mind doesn't mean I am not. Your complete disdain for the people who lost their homes and land during the resettlement speaks a great deal about your flawed character. Just because the victors write the history doesn't make the story complete or truthful.

It is absolutely possible for a rations person to sympathize with both the Jews and the Palestinians. Both have suffered immeasurably over the years, but two wrongs don't make a right.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Errr...this is actually true.
The Balfour Declaration is what Zionists hang their hat on, when justifying the purchase of Palestine from the absentee landlords...the Turks I believe it was...?
But it was the Palestinian people who had been there all along. Had worked the land and build the towns...such as they were.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians of the time were fairly simple people, and they were quite completely taken advantage of by the likes of the Rothchild family.

So although, OldFatGuy, the migrants may not have been aware of the backroom screwin' that went on in order to secure the land of Palestine, the fact is their land...again, such as it was...had been purchased right out from under their feet.

Here endith the lesson...:cool:
 
Pakistan has been two faced and self-serving, but then so have we.

The last thing we want or need right now is another confrontation with a nuclear power with twitchy neighbors.

We simply cannot push these nations around like they don't have their own deterrent. We don't have a credible invasion option in the region, or any stomach for it, and they know that.

It makes us look weak, and we don't get what we want anyhow.

I'd say the major reason they aren't avowed enemies of ours is that we pay them. Removing the leverage we do have is unlikely to do more than push them into the arms of the Russian or Chinese.

Is that an improvement in the region? Does it protect our interests more than paying the b@stards off?

You have to choose from the outcomes available, not the ones you wish were available.
 
You do understand that both Pakistan and China share antagonistic relationships with India, and all three are on war footing with each other? The Chinese and the Pakistanis don't trust each other. The Chinese have accused Pakistan of aiding and abetting (read that as arming) islamic separatists in China, and Pakistan is still accusing China of having designs on territory with Pakistan's border with China. Pakistan still holds animosity for China's backing (again read that as arming) Bangladesh during that separatist war.

A month or so ago, China and India announced mutual industrial cooperative agreements, with the hope of diminishing animosity between the two nations. Both have deployed additional troops on their mutual borders since 2009, but more so in 2015. Both have claimed a regional war is inevitable because of the other. China has its Black Lightening armored divisions posted to the Pakistani border. China prevented the deployment of Pakistani troops to Burma, Myanmar, when the Buddhists started slaughtering muslims there last summer. An action between "friends?"

Yeah, you got that right.

BTW, China has sent a delegate to Israel for exploring formal ties between the two nations. Something about those gas and oil fields discovered off the coast of Israel, larger than those originally of the Saudi Peninsula. Both Israel and China have employed the SinCo. Corp., a Saudi oil exploitation planning company, actually composed of American oil exploration and drilling tech companies backed by Saudi investment. China has discovered possible large oil fields in sparsely populated SW China.

I have not read anything regarding the support of China towards East Pakistan (Bangladesh) during that war. Can you direct me towards something that has that information
 
Errr...this is actually true.
The Balfour Declaration is what Zionists hang their hat on, when justifying the purchase of Palestine from the absentee landlords...the Turks I believe it was...?
But it was the Palestinian people who had been there all along. Had worked the land and build the towns...such as they were.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians of the time were fairly simple people, and they were quite completely taken advantage of by the likes of the Rothchild family.

So although, OldFatGuy, the migrants may not have been aware of the backroom screwin' that went on in order to secure the land of Palestine, the fact is their land...again, such as it was...had been purchased right out from under their feet.

Here endith the lesson...:cool:

Very well said.
 
Don't overthink my statement.
History doesnt care about your feelings. The Indians in this country can if they choose to sit back and feel very much like victims...conquered souls. Thats not going to change anything. Their option is to live as a conquered people on reservations...one of the stupidest things the country has ever done...or live as a fre member of this country and society. If they want to live a s a conquered people...thats fine...but they shouldnt pretend they are victims, any more so than the people THEIR ancestors killed and conquered.

If I was a Palestinian...yeah...Id probably be pissed. But the options were live as a free and participating member of Israel when it was formed or rebel and live as Palestinians without a country. Choices. They can fight to retake what was once theirs which they once took from others which was once taken from someone else which was once taken from them which was once taken from someone else. They can engage in a perpetual state of terrorism and war. They can assimilate into an Arab state...if other Arab states would have them (and history hasnt been kind there). But it just is what it is. Today....and for the last 80 years or so...the Jews have 'occupied' and (re) claimed Israel. But if one ISNT a Palestinian and is expressing some sort of poutrage about Israel and sympathy towards the Palestinians AND if that someone hasnt given up their house and land and isnt actively lobbying to turn the US over to the Indians...that would pretty much make someone a hypocrite of the highest order....right?
 
I expect Pakistan feels the same way about the US regarding the US as being a reliable ally

China has been far more reliable an ally to Pakistan than the US has been over the last 50 years or so. More so out of shared strategic issues (re India). I expect that Pakistan believes the US has zero concerns regarding Pakistan and what it considers strategically important to it. Ie using Afghanistan for strategic depth in case of conflict with India.

Until the US shows consideration towards what Pakistan feels is important to its defense Pakistan will only pay lip service towards what the US feels is important to it. After all without Pakistan, the US forces in Afghanistan will be far harder to supply and rotate. The costs will go up for logistics

The US has been a steady ally of Pakistan for decades. The common interest was alliance with China as leverage against the Soviet Union and its more-or-less ally India. Kissinger secretly arranged the Nixon opening to China via secret meetings in Pakistan, for example.
 
History doesnt care about your feelings. The Indians in this country can if they choose to sit back and feel very much like victims...conquered souls. Thats not going to change anything. Their option is to live as a conquered people on reservations...one of the stupidest things the country has ever done...or live as a fre member of this country and society. If they want to live a s a conquered people...thats fine...but they shouldnt pretend they are victims, any more so than the people THEIR ancestors killed and conquered.

If I was a Palestinian...yeah...Id probably be pissed. But the options were live as a free and participating member of Israel when it was formed or rebel and live as Palestinians without a country. Choices. They can fight to retake what was once theirs which they once took from others which was once taken from someone else which was once taken from them which was once taken from someone else. They can engage in a perpetual state of terrorism and war. They can assimilate into an Arab state...if other Arab states would have them (and history hasnt been kind there). But it just is what it is. Today....and for the last 80 years or so...the Jews have 'occupied' and (re) claimed Israel. But if one ISNT a Palestinian and is expressing some sort of poutrage about Israel and sympathy towards the Palestinians AND if that someone hasnt given up their house and land and isnt actively lobbying to turn the US over to the Indians...that would pretty much make someone a hypocrite of the highest order....right?

No, it doesn't make them a hypocrite. You can look back upon history and make a determination that something that happened was a bad thing, that it shouldn't have happened. What happened to the Native Americans was horrible. I'm not saying that Israel should now be kicked out of the land they have established the state on. I'm saying the whole situation was ****ed and shouldn't have happened the way it did.

That doesn't make a hypocrite, it just means I have a healthy empathy response to people in a bad situation. That is why I said don't overthink my response.
 
You're talking WWII, and I am saying 3000 years....yeah migrant alright....if any are migrant it is the Palestinians. After Palistine is a made up term anyway.

Sent from my SM-T587P using Tapatalk

I don't know man, it appears that Palestine is a real word in the dictionary. Also the Palestinians lived there for many years and the Jews came later.
 
No, it doesn't make them a hypocrite. You can look back upon history and make a determination that something that happened was a bad thing, that it shouldn't have happened. What happened to the Native Americans was horrible. I'm not saying that Israel should now be kicked out of the land they have established the state on. I'm saying the whole situation was ****ed and shouldn't have happened the way it did.

That doesn't make a hypocrite, it just means I have a healthy empathy response to people in a bad situation. That is why I said don't overthink my response.


Welcome to the history of the world.
 
Nobody alive in World War 2 was alive 3000 years ago. They had no right to ownership of that land. The Palestinians lived there for generations and were displaced by migrating Jews. Don't be daft, the Jews settling the land were 100% migrants, by the very definition of the word.
The nomad Arabs who renamed themselves "Palestinians" are the occupiers in biblical, historically Jewish for 3 thousand years. More than a few generations.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
I don't know man, it appears that Palestine is a real word in the dictionary. Also the Palestinians lived there for many years and the Jews came later.
OMG...:doh

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
They absolutely did live there for generations. The lines that were conveniently drawn up by white European conquerors do not erase the historical rights of those who lived and worked that land prior to 1948. How very foolish of you to say such nonsense.

None of your statement erases the fact that Jews were allowed, even encouraged, to migrate from all over the world to settle Palestine. And that is exactly what happened. At the expense of the non-Jews, specifically the Muslims who lived there. Don't try to pass your crap off as justification for what took place. "Real history." What a joke.

Baloney. White European Conquerers had little if nothing to do with the establishment of the modern Israeli state, if anything, they did their best to oppose it. The British did their best to stop all Jewish immigration, Winnie knew all about the holocaust and did nothing to stop it, not one European nation ever gave a damn about its Jews with exception of Denmark, which had never partaken of colonialism and had no influence whatsoever in the mideast.

For once, come out and be honest. You hate Jews and love our nation's enemies. We've been at war with the muslims, like everyone else, since this nation was formed. Look to the Marine Hymn for evidence.

Yes, real history, not fabricated propaganda which you keep spouting. I don't need to justify anything. All power to those who made the desert bloom, not those who smashed the greenhouses left to them when Israel let them have some self rule. Real history is that Jordan is the palestinian state. No Arab living in Israel wants to live under islamic rule. They may have some sympathy for those they see suffering, but they still don't want an islamic government to feed on them. They prefer Israel where they have more rights than most Jews in Israel. They are not required to serve in the IDF, but many choose to do so. They can speak freely, whatever their positions. They can complain about the government all they want with no interference. They are guaranteed free healthcare, equal pay for the same work as anyone else, free education for their children, and no obstruction of religious education. And most of all, they don't have to subjugate themselves to some self enriching despot and his family.

Take a trip, go to Israel, find out yourself from Israeli Arabs what they want. A little a priori research will do you good, and probably help with your diet.
 
The Balfour Declaration meant everything to them, because it was a message that legitimized the creation of a Jewish homeland and gave them a place to go. It was not, however, the only proposal that was on the board. Jewish and British leaders were considering multiple other locations for resettling Jewish refugees prior to the outbreak of war in 1940.

Don't act like you know anything about me. Just because you are unable separate issues properly in your own mind doesn't mean I am not. Your complete disdain for the people who lost their homes and land during the resettlement speaks a great deal about your flawed character. Just because the victors write the history doesn't make the story complete or truthful.

It is absolutely possible for a rations person to sympathize with both the Jews and the Palestinians. Both have suffered immeasurably over the years, but two wrongs don't make a right.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nonsense. Those Russian and German Jews of the early zionist movement had no knowledge of the Balfour Declaration and knew even less of Britain. Those who survived the holocaust for the most part didn't learn of the declaration until after they arrived in Israel.

I have far more than disdain for scavengers and more for those who believe their propaganda. George Patton got them right. And he was no friend of Jews either. I have absolutely no shame for people who choose to follow a religion at war with the world since its inception, a religion that demands subjugation or death for all. The shame is on your head for supporting them. You can stop with the nonsense of your psych 101 education. Your words of hate have repeatedly spoken for you.
 
I expect Pakistan feels the same way about the US regarding the US as being a reliable ally

China has been far more reliable an ally to Pakistan than the US has been over the last 50 years or so. More so out of shared strategic issues (re India). I expect that Pakistan believes the US has zero concerns regarding Pakistan and what it considers strategically important to it. Ie using Afghanistan for strategic depth in case of conflict with India.

Until the US shows consideration towards what Pakistan feels is important to its defense Pakistan will only pay lip service towards what the US feels is important to it. After all without Pakistan, the US forces in Afghanistan will be far harder to supply and rotate. The costs will go up for logistics

Tamerlane conquered Pakistan and Afghanistan with death and destruction. The self declared heir to the Khans was far more destructive than any of the khans, and none of them were choir boys.
 
Last edited:
Gwadar is about 1000 miles from the Straits of Hormus, certainly not at the mouth of it

Overall China and Pakistan have been better allies towards each other than the US and Pakistan for decades


Mutual fear of India.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom