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Public opposition to tax bill grows as vote approaches

tres borrachos said:
No. But if that's true (and it is), then why should we repeat history?

Keep in mind too that most Americans had employer sponsored insurance before the ACA was passed, and most Americans continue to have employer sponsored insurance today. If I remember the polls correctly, the plurality of Americans (myself included) believed that the ACA would have no impact on us. Generally speaking, it didn't. I still have my insurance.

The ACA was a failure as it was only an entitlement and didn't lower costs for most Americans. So again, that said, why would Republicans try to do the same thing that Democrats did?
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Polls are shaped by public perception of an issue, and not really the actual facts of the situation. From what I've seen, a lot of the media has been pretty negative regarding the tax bill, and that impacts the public's perception. Also, from what I've read and heard about the bill itself, I don't think this tax bill is as horrible as is being presented.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
A $4K annual pay increase for someone making $15/hour would be about more 5 hours of work per week.
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Okay?

So again, do you expect that $4000 pay raise from the corporate tax cut, and how does everyone get it since that would be $503 billion, and corporations only paid $297 billion before their taxes are cut?
 
Moon said:
Polls are shaped by public perception of an issue, and not really the actual facts of the situation. From what I've seen, a lot of the media has been pretty negative regarding the tax bill, and that impacts the public's perception. Also, from what I've read and heard about the bill itself, I don't think this tax bill is as horrible as is being presented.
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I'm sure the media is negative. Many in the media were negative about the ACA and other bills, too.

I looked at what I could of the tax plan, and read like a demon the last few weeks. I can't see the benefit to me. And it's supposed to benefit me (a middle class American), not corporations.

Do you think many Americans are sitting around saying "I sure hope the already record profitable corporations get a tax cut"? Only about 50 percent of Americans are invested in the market in one form or another.
 
Moon said:
I agree. Curious that people think a poll should determine whether a bill should be passed or not.
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I don't recall anyone saying that, Moon. I started this thread and never said that.

The perception of the American public about this bill should give anyone who is a Republican, like me, pause. I don't know about you, but I don't care to see the same thing happen to the Republicans that happened to the Democrats after they passed the unpopular ACA. Or is it better to not have that conversation?
 
tres borrachos said:
Okay?

So again, do you expect that $4000 pay raise from the corporate tax cut, and how does everyone get it since that would be $503 billion, and corporations only paid $297 billion before their taxes are cut?
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What are you basing this claim that "everybody will get $4K annual raise from the corporate tax rate reduction" on?
 
tres borrachos said:
I'm sure the media is negative. Many in the media were negative about the ACA and other bills, too.

I looked at what I could of the tax plan, and read like a demon the last few weeks. I can't see the benefit to me. And it's supposed to benefit me (a middle class American), not corporations.

Do you think many Americans are sitting around saying "I sure hope the already record profitable corporations get a tax cut"? Only about 50 percent of Americans are invested in the market in one form or another.
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It looks like we will save $2500 to $3000 a year. I haven't done a deep dive, but there's a benefit.

I like the reduction in the corporate tax rate. Reduced expenses means it could result in more jobs in the US rather than overseas. It could also mean expansion to existing facilities and other capital expenditures. All of that means more well-paying jobs, within the corporations themselves as well as construction, equipment sales, etc. Some will choose to pocket the savings, but I think more will look to grow.
 
tres borrachos said:
Come on, Republicans. You have a golden opportunity to pass a bill that simplifies the tax code and gives permanent tax relief to the people you most need to get on your side - the middle class. You need to live up to your promise to reduce the deficit. You need to at least put forth the appearance of not wanting to help the wealthy and the corporations.

But you didn't. This bill is bad, and will negatively impact you for a very long time. This is history repeating itself. Look at what the ACA did to the Democrats.

It's depressing.

With the House of Representatives likely to take up the Republican tax reform bill Tuesday, the plan faces growing opposition and a widespread perception that it will benefit the wealthy more than the middle class, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS.

Opposition to the bill has grown 10 points since early November, and 55% now oppose it. Just 33% say they favor the GOP's proposals to reform the nation's tax code.

Related: Full poll results

Two-thirds see the bill as doing more to benefit the wealthy than the middle class (66%, vs. 27% who say it'll do more to benefit the middle class) and almost four in 10 (37%) say that if the bill becomes law, their own family will be worse off. That's grown five points since early November. Just 21% say they'll be better off if the bill becomes law.

President Donald Trump, the bill's salesperson-in-chief, lands at an overall 35% approval rating in this poll, his worst mark yet in CNN polling by one point. Trump's approval ratings continue to be the lowest for any modern president at this point in his presidency. As of December of their first year in office, all first-time elected presidents back to Eisenhower have approval ratings of 49% or higher except for Trump.

More than six in 10 (63%) see the tax bill as leaving the President and his family better off. Just 5% think it harms the Trump clan. And disapproval of the President's handling of taxes has risen six points in the last month, to 57%.


More here:

Public opposition to tax bill grows as vote approaches
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MSM is mostly in the hands of liberals. Most voters are not very well educated in economics and accounting. Most will not be following business and markets media.

So, given the rather partisan hysteria being demonstrated in the general media, the polls should not surprise anyone.
 
tres borrachos said:
I don't recall anyone saying that, Moon. I started this thread and never said that.

The perception of the American public about this bill should give anyone who is a Republican, like me, pause. I don't know about you, but I don't care to see the same thing happen to the Republicans that happened to the Democrats after they passed the unpopular ACA. Or is it better to not have that conversation?
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That's kind of the unstated premise if the article, if not your personal opinion.

It's important to have the conversation, but I think a lot of the facts of the bill are being overshadowed by all the noise and bad reporting surrounding it.
 
Moon said:
It looks like we will save $2500 to $3000 a year. I haven't done a deep dive, but there's a benefit.

I like the reduction in the corporate tax rate. Reduced expenses means it could result in more jobs in the US rather than overseas. It could also mean expansion to existing facilities and other capital expenditures. All of that means more well-paying jobs, within the corporations themselves as well as construction, equipment sales, etc. Some will choose to pocket the savings, but I think more will look to grow.
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Trump said $4000 a year.

I don't know if you remember, but recently Gary Cohn asked a bunch of CEOs if they would commit to more jobs and American investments if their tax rate was lowered. He was met with most crickets.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/15/gary-cohn-looks-for-assurances-from-ceos-on-tax-plan-gets-crickets.html

Corporations are posting record profits. And they have been for years. Record profits. They could add jobs now, and construct, buy equipment, etc. But they aren't. Corporations aren't dumb. They do things based on their business models, the economic impact of their services/products, demand, etc. My company is very profitable, but we aren't going to hire because of a tax decrease. And like most companies, we aren't paying anywhere near the rate we're supposed to pay anyway.
 
Moon said:
That's kind of the unstated premise if the article, if not your personal opinion.

It's important to have the conversation, but I think a lot of the facts of the bill are being overshadowed by all the noise and bad reporting surrounding it.
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It is my personal opinion. That's why I posted it. I never said or implied that a bill shouldn't be passed if the polls aren't in favor of it. My point (I thought it was clear) was that the Republicans are making a mistake not taking into account that they need the middle class support - and they aren't going to get it.
 
jonny5 said:
Polls are bull****.



They over sampled democrats, and WAY oversampled independents, who are typically liberals who dont want to be identified. And 1000 people certainly cant speak for the entire country. Meanwhile 50 million people voted for Republicans in the last election to do exactly what theyre doing.
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This is always the case with these dumb polls, you also must realize that the republicans sampled tend to be urban republicans that tend more center than right.


If you want to see if this **** is supported, look at the stock market.
 
tres borrachos said:
Trump said $4000 a year.

I don't know if you remember, but recently Gary Cohn asked a bunch of CEOs if they would commit to more jobs and American investments if their tax rate was lowered. He was met with most crickets.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/15/gary-cohn-looks-for-assurances-from-ceos-on-tax-plan-gets-crickets.html

Corporations are posting record profits. And they have been for years. Record profits. They could add jobs now, and construct, buy equipment, etc. But they aren't. Corporations aren't dumb. They do things based on their business models, the economic impact of their services/products, demand, etc. My company is very profitable, but we aren't going to hire because of a tax decrease. And like most companies, we aren't paying anywhere near the rate we're supposed to pay anyway.
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Presidents say a lot of things. I'm still waiting on my $2500 in savings for Obamacare. I'll take a close look at what's actually in the bill.

I read that and my first thought was of course they won't commit to more jobs, because additional hiring is a function of a company needing additional resources to do whatever it does, and isn't the end goal. I thought it was a truly bizarre question to ask CEOs in the first place.
 
Moon said:
Presidents say a lot of things. I'm still waiting on my $2500 in savings for Obamacare. I'll take a close look at what's actually in the bill.

I read that and my first thought was of course they won't commit to more jobs, because additional hiring is a function of a company needing additional resources to do whatever it does, and isn't the end goal. I thought it was a truly bizarre question to ask CEOs in the first place.
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So because Obama lied, it's okay to trust President Trump, who is a known liar?

I don't think Cohn's question was bizarre. You don't think, since that's what Trump is touting, that you need to make sure the CEOs are on board with Trump's plan?
 
tres borrachos said:
So because Obama lied, it's okay to trust President Trump, who is a known liar?

I don't think Cohn's question was bizarre. You don't think, since that's what Trump is touting, that you need to make sure the CEOs are on board with Trump's plan?
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I don't trust Trump, that's why I said I needed to look at it in more detail.

I think it's very possible that corporations will add jobs if these cuts result in building new ir expansion of existing facilities. Like I said, it's not going to be the thing they do because of the cuts but because of whatever else they do that increases their business.
 
Moon said:
I don't trust Trump, that's why I said I needed to look at it in more detail.

I think it's very possible that corporations will add jobs if these cuts result in building new ir expansion of existing facilities. Like I said, it's not going to be the thing they do because of the cuts but because of whatever else they do that increases their business.
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I don't trust Trump at all. I never will. I do trust the Republicans in Congress, and in my opinion, they have failed with this bill.

The optics of this bill are not good for the Republicans, just like the optics of the ACA weren't good for the Democrats. Because I care more about the Republicans keeping the majorities than I do about stroking Donald Trump's ego, I'm going to say it.
 
tres borrachos said:
Not sure what point you're trying to make here. The Gallup poll in August of 1981 showed that most Americans favored the Reagan tax cuts. Are you confused?

Spending Cuts Popular in Reagan's 1981 Budget
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Indeed. Flipped the number in reading it.

Reading fivethirtyeight now who was arguing that the impression that the tax helped the rich more for the Reagan bill grew over time, which is the thrust of the article you posted, and that the hate of the bill is derived from that argument. That thought didn't appear to hurt Reagan in 1984 (when 69% of the public believed that the bill benefited the rich most), or Bush in 1988 (65%) when the country thought the taxes helped the rich more. Since pretty much everyone who pays taxes is getting a tax cut, and GDP growth is pushing 4% I am fairly certain that the hate fomented by the anti-Trump wing will have a hard time overcoming what the people actually see in their pay checks.
 
tres borrachos said:
I don't trust Trump at all. I never will. I do trust the Republicans in Congress, and in my opinion, they have failed with this bill.

The optics of this bill are not good for the Republicans, just like the optics of the ACA weren't good for the Democrats. Because I care more about the Republicans keeping the majorities than I do about stroking Donald Trump's ego, I'm going to say it.
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Your hatred for this bill has more to do with who is signing it, don't kid yourself.
 
jmotivator said:
Your hatred for this bill has more to do with who is signing it, don't kid yourself.
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Given that you didn't even know how popular Reagan's tax cuts were, and made an unfortunate and embarrassing error, you may want to keep your snark to yourself.

Unlike you, I'm a Republican who wants to see them keep their majorities.
 
Moon said:
I don't trust Trump, that's why I said I needed to look at it in more detail.

I think it's very possible that corporations will add jobs if these cuts result in building new ir expansion of existing facilities. Like I said, it's not going to be the thing they do because of the cuts but because of whatever else they do that increases their business.
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Why are Republicans so obsessed with creating jobs when the unemployment rate is at 4.1%?
 
TheGoverness said:
Polls are fake news, Tres. You should know this.
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You had 5 major stories on Trump retracted in a span of what... 10-days?

The GIMPs (Goebbels Inspired Media Propagandists) have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. Sad to say... but they’re not believable. They did it to themselves... and the past 3-years has been a special type of insanity.

Then they create polls to shape news they want to report... like this. You don’t think this is what is happening? ROTFLOL...

Democrats tried yesterday to create a rally... but nobody showed up and the rally and presser with Pelosi were cancelled. Oh Yeah! The people just don’t want their taxes cut, and they want to be forced into the Careless Affordable Care Act (CACA)... That’s funny!!!

Remember this???

November 7, 2016.
Hillary Clinton has a 98% chance of winning presidential election.

Whoops!!!
###

October 12, 2017
Why the polls are still wrong | TheHill
Mark Penn
Clinton Pollster
 
tres borrachos said:
It is my personal opinion. That's why I posted it. I never said or implied that a bill shouldn't be passed if the polls aren't in favor of it. My point (I thought it was clear) was that the Republicans are making a mistake not taking into account that they need the middle class support - and they aren't going to get it.
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First - We don't govern by poll. That's how libs do things.

Second - You don't speak for the "middle class"

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
jmotivator said:
Indeed. Flipped the number in reading it.

Reading fivethirtyeight now who was arguing that the impression that the tax helped the rich more for the Reagan bill grew over time, which is the thrust of the article you posted, and that the hate of the bill is derived from that argument. That thought didn't appear to hurt Reagan in 1984 (when 69% of the public believed that the bill benefited the rich most), or Bush in 1988 (65%) when the country thought the taxes helped the rich more. Since pretty much everyone who pays taxes is getting a tax cut, and GDP growth is pushing 4% I am fairly certain that the hate fomented by the anti-Trump wing will have a hard time overcoming what the people actually see in their pay checks.
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You may also want to remember that the country was in a horrific recession when Reagan took office. The unemployment rate was almost twice what it is today. The average inflation rate in 1981 was over 10%.

We keep hearing how great our economy is doing today. Stock market records. Low unemployment. Record corporate profits. So what is the correlation between the need for Reagan to push tax reform and the need for it today? The answer is "none".

Reagan's tax cuts were popular because they were needed. And to your earlier point, he was re-elected resoundingly because of them.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Why are Republicans so obsessed with creating jobs when the unemployment rate is at 4.1%?
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Because everyone wanting a job should have one.

Because it means fewer handouts, and less power to the Socialists of America Partei (SAPs)

Because... after 8-years of Obama, we want to prove how sickeningly wrong that economic incompetent and his “laser-like focus on the economy” was.

Because it is the best way to destroy the SAPs and their failed ideas for years to come.
 
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