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‘time running out’ to avoid war with north korea, u.s. Official says

ecofarm said:
Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq were sovereign nations. You misuse the term. A nation is the people, not the government. People living under terrorist tyranny or genocidal dictatorship are not sovereign, they have no voice in their authority or future. Those were sovereign tyrannies, not sovereign nations. Now, thanks to the US, they are sovereign nations.
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Huh?

Afghanistan weren't "sovereign" according to who's rules? Yours?

Afghanistan and Iran were invaded because George Bush needed a numbers lift. Period

They were invaded because there were no allies top back them up, Russian certainly wasn't going to try to stop the US from wasting a few hundred billion for nothing. Iran was attacked because Saddam tried to assassinate the other Bush

But nether you, nor the American government has the right to decide what is "sovereign" and what is not.

Try doling some research in the future...first look up the meaning of the word "sovereign"
 
Fearandloathing said:
After reading a lengthy piece in The Guardian this week end, I would put the responsibility on Trump. It has been his rhetoric of promised destruction that has advanced their nuke program. Trump is too stupid to realize that when he threatens to destroy them as a people they will try to protect themselves.

In the Korean culture Kim does not care as its his ancestors who will be "honored."
Americans are simply going to have to accept NK is a super power and deal with it. Kim will fire on himself rather than allow "filthy Americans" on his soil.

In closing there are growing reports that Trump's recent visit to China did not go well, the reason there were no announcements. Word is Trump got handed his head for the rhetoric he's been spewing. That's believable because he lies so much his side cannot be given credibility.

Kim WILL fire. Do not doubt for one minute.
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Of course you have proof to all of gossip you just forwarded?

Handed his head.

Kim will fire on himself?

C'mon.......share your sources for once instead of playing the self important intellectual attack.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Even in the west, we're not immune to propaganda and that's not to say he's not a bad guy or that what he's doing isn't awfully reckless BUT, to simply portray him as the insane "Rocket man" destroys all understanding of the nuances at play here and that, in my opinion is more dangerous, you can only defeat an enemy you understand and to relegate Kim Jong Un to an insane cartoon character isn't really helpful in beating him.

Now look, I cannot preclude that the kind of fearful devotion that a leader like Kim Jong Un gets, must do something to his psyche, what that is I do not know, but I can say with the utmost confidence that he's not actually that crazy.

He'd have to have dementia or brain damage to go down that path and I think we're far from that, you have to understand that despite all the fiery and colorful rhetoric... What he's doing isn't entirely irrational.

I would thoroughly suggest you watch the following video and I think you will find it enlightening.

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That video really brings up some good points. We, as a populace, need to understand that NK is made up of people just like us, and they have the same desire for self-preservation that we do. If we can justify having nukes as a deterrent to protect ourselves, we have to accept that others might want them for the same reason. Now if NK starts shooting them at another country and goes beyond just having them as a deterrent then that's a problem.
 
Johnson said:
That video really brings up some good points. We, as a populace, need to understand that NK is made up of people just like us, and they have the same desire for self-preservation that we do. If we can justify having nukes as a deterrent to protect ourselves, we have to accept that others might want them for the same reason. Now if NK starts shooting them at another country and goes beyond just having them as a deterrent then that's a problem.
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Nuclear proliferation is the key word.

Understanding motivations is fine... and lets get it straight, it's the preservation of the regime at stake for Kim, not the people of his country which he could probably care less about.

But if NK can be allowed to flout international law and do what it wants, if Nuclear Weapons are allowed to proliferate throughout the world... That is an unacceptable outcome.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Huh?

Afghanistan weren't "sovereign" according to who's rules? Yours?

Afghanistan and Iran were invaded because George Bush needed a numbers lift. Period

They were invaded because there were no allies top back them up, Russian certainly wasn't going to try to stop the US from wasting a few hundred billion for nothing. Iran was attacked because Saddam tried to assassinate the other Bush

But nether you, nor the American government has the right to decide what is "sovereign" and what is not.

Try doling some research in the future...first look up the meaning of the word "sovereign"
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Uh....no, Afghanistan was invaded because they sheltered and aided Osama Bin Laden. Iraq was invaded because Saddam did everything in his power to make the world think he was involved in 9/11 and had a history of using WMDs on civilians as well as aggression against neighboring countries.

You repeatedly calling Iraq "Iran" is bizarre by the way.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Nuclear proliferation is the key word.

Understanding motivations is fine... and lets get it straight, it's the preservation of the regime at stake for Kim, not the people of his country which he could probably care less about.

But if NK can be allowed to flout international law and do what it wants, if Nuclear Weapons are allowed to proliferate throughout the world... That is an unacceptable outcome.
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I agree, I guess I was giving him more credit then he deserves. It's not like the preservation of his regime really benefits his citizens. If it did, his people would be able to...you know...eat.
 
JANFU said:
What about all the rest, should the US take military action?
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There are many methods with which to drag backwards regimes into the 20th century. Sometimes, diplomacy and economic engagements are the best avenue, such as China and Saudi. Those states have shown a willingness to progress, even if the pace is less than we'd like. Sometimes, sanctions can steer a regime in a better direction. Sometimes, development aid is the best course of action. Military partnership is another means of influence. Force should only be employed in the most dire circumstances such as genocide or a failed state turned terrorist fiefdom. In those cases, the transition to democracy only gets more painful the longer tyrants remain in power and annihilate human and social capital.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Afghanistan and Iran were invaded because George Bush needed a numbers lift. Period
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That's simpleton hogwash.

But nether you, nor the American government has the right to decide what is "sovereign" and what is not.
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That's stupid. Use a little brain power and I'm sure you can understand this:

A sovereign nation is a sovereign people. A nation is the people, not the government. A sovereign tyranny is not a sovereign people. Sovereignty is the ability to control ones authority and future, victims of tyranny have no such power.

How can you claim a gay or a woman, or any power minority, has a say in their nation's future under backwards dictatorship? They don't. They're not sovereign. The regime is sovereign, not the people.
 
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Johnson said:
I agree, I guess I was giving him more credit then he deserves. It's not like the preservation of his regime really benefits his citizens. If it did, his people would be able to...you know...eat.
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In the meantime... One has to say that it is quite incredible that when you put these stats side by side... North Korea can be capable of threatening America:

SubjectUSANorth KoreaPercentage Of
GDP (nominal)$18.5 Trillion$25 Billion0.13%
GDP Per Capita (nominal)$57, 000$1, 0001.7%
Population325 million25 Million7.69%
Military Budget$588 Billion$7.5 Billion1.28%
 
Jetboogieman said:
In the meantime... One has to say that it is quite incredible that when you put these stats side by side... North Korea can be capable of threatening America:

SubjectUSANorth KoreaPercentage Of
GDP (nominal)$18.5 Trillion$25 Billion0.13%
GDP Per Capita (nominal)$57, 000$1, 0001.7%
Population325 million25 Million7.69%
Military Budget$588 Billion$7.5 Billion1.28%
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Wow. Their military budget is almost 25% of their GDP. And that per capita GDP is nothing short of absurd.
 
poweRob said:
I'm not buying the hype. It does indeed suck but the hype will then be turned into how trump should be immensely praised for having saved us from a disaster that he created.
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You think Trump created the problem with North Korea?
 
ecofarm said:
There are many methods with which to drag backwards regimes into the 20th century. Sometimes, diplomacy and economic engagements are the best avenue, such as China and Saudi. Those states have shown a willingness to progress, even if the pace is less than we'd like. Sometimes, sanctions can steer a regime in a better direction. Sometimes, development aid is the best course of action. Military partnership is another means of influence. Force should only be employed in the most dire circumstances such as genocide or a failed state turned terrorist fiefdom. In those cases, the transition to democracy only gets more painful the longer tyrants remain in power and annihilate human and social capital.
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Then we have Iraq and Astan - Iraq was a mistake, the wrong war. Astan, understood would not hand over OBL and others, the mistake in both wars was attempting to nation build and staying.
 
camlok said:
Y'all were completely content when the USA was supporting those very governments you now disparage. Hells bells, the US was courting the Taliban all thru the 1990s, taking them on tours of US tourist traps, negotiating with them into August 2001.

The USA is a war criminal nation. It illegally invaded two sovereign nations. That is international law as defined by the US at Nuremberg.
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Why lie?
 
Roadvirus said:
Huh? WTF are you talking about?
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It's hardly surprising that the most brainwashed people on the planet, the subjects of the most pervasive propaganda system the world has ever known, are woefully ignorant of the US's long history of war crimes and terrorism against many countries of the world.
 
Mason66 said:
Sure he did.

Calling Kim a name caused NK to arm itself.

You are way out there.
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Are you seriously going to contend that the situation with NK didn't get much worse since trump? If so then you are delusional.
 
camlok said:
It's hardly surprising that the most brainwashed people on the planet, the subjects of the most pervasive propaganda system the world has ever known, are woefully ignorant of the US's long history of war crimes and terrorism against many countries of the world.
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Hey, look, another NON-ANSWER.....

Go back to the CT forum if you can't back up your BS.
 
JANFU said:
Then we have Iraq and Astan - Iraq was a mistake, the wrong war. Astan, understood would not hand over OBL and others, the mistake in both wars was attempting to nation build and staying.
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When a dictator dies, the void of human and social capital he created and perpetuated results in local warlords seizing power. The longer the dictator is in power, the worse it will be when he dies. The only way to mitigate the pain of democratic transition is to support the fledgling democracy. Nation building is a moral obligation given the impending difficulties in the wake of a dictator. Afghanistan has 70+ women elected to provincial office and women have run for national office. That wouldn't have happened without international support.
 
ecofarm said:
When a dictator dies, the void of human and social capital he created and perpetuated results in local warlords seizing power. The longer the dictator is in power, the worse it will be when he dies. The only way to mitigate the pain of democratic transition is to support the fledgling democracy. Nation building is a moral obligation given the impending difficulties in the wake of a dictator. Afghanistan has 70+ women elected to provincial office and women have run for national office. That wouldn't have happened without international support.
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Astan is a sinkhole of blood and treasure.
 
JANFU said:
Astan is a sinkhole of blood and treasure.
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There has been great social, political and developmental progress. I'm not about to give up on anyone, especially those who have risen like the people of Afghanistan.
 
poweRob said:
Are you seriously going to contend that the situation with NK didn't get much worse since trump? If so then you are delusional.
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You are delusional is you think Trump is to blame for it.

Kim has been doing the same thing for years and years.

He is closer now to hitting the US so he is showing the world he can.

Trump just happens to be President right now.
 
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