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Woman accuses Al Franken of kissing, groping her without consent

DiAnna said:
I'm not ready to go that far if this is an isolated incident. He deliberately humiliated her; she returned the favor and there will be a Senate ethics investigation. We'll see what happens after that.
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Yeah, I walked it back a little in a later post:

Having read Franken's first statement, his political future rests on several points:

1)Was his apology sufficient in its effort to express remorse and take responsibility for his actions?
2)Will people accept that remorse, and believe that he is not the human being represented by that action?
3)Was this an isolated incident or was it part of a pattern of behavior like with Clinton, Trump, Moore and the bevy of Hollywood personalities this year?
4)Will Leeann Tweeden forgive him?

#1 and #2 are too subjective to say, and only time will tell. #3 will end him in a New York minute if more cases come out. #4 is the least subjective: Tweeden either forgives him or she doesn't, but her response will be important to his image.
 
Cardinal said:
Yeah, I walked it back a little in a later post:

Having read Franken's first statement, his political future rests on several points:

1)Was his apology sufficient in its effort to express remorse and take responsibility for his actions?
2)Will people accept that remorse, and believe that he is not the human being represented by that action?
3)Was this an isolated incident or was it part of a pattern of behavior like with Clinton, Trump, Moore and the bevy of Hollywood personalities this year?
4)Will Leeann Tweeden forgive him?

#1 and #2 are too subjective to say, and only time will tell. #3 will end him in a New York minute if more cases come out. #4 is the least subjective: Tweeden either forgives him or she doesn't, but her response will be important to his image.
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She said she forgives him.
 
Paperview said:
She said she forgives him.
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Yup, I saw that. That's certainly important, though it still remains to be seen how all of this plays out. My feeling (though I could obviously end up being wrong) is that this is a one-off incident, and combined with forgiveness from the victim and a near instantaneous full apology by Franken, it's possible the public forgives him.

Or they don't. Even if he isn't a serial sexual predator, grabbing the breasts of sleeping women for a "haha" moment isn't especially in vogue these days.
 
ecofarm said:
I define sexual assault as a sexual threat. In Florida, assault is verbal or otherwise threat; physical touching is battery. Most states use assault to mean physical but not FL. Because his action is in response to rejection, and thus represents "you can't stop me", I find it to be a threat. It's not sexual battery, because his behavior in the pic is not really physical, it's symbolic.

Our disagreement is legal terminology? You agree it's a threat of a sexual nature, right? In FL, that's sexual assault.
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Yes, our disagreement is legal terminology. My definition is sexual harassment, but whatever it is called, it was damned inappropriate.
 
poweRob said:
Wanna cite that?
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Weird you never heard of that guy.
You would be a fan normally.

“'I give the pills to Lesley Stahl. Then when Lesley is passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her.' Or ‘That’s why you never see Lesley until February.' Or, ‘When she passes out. I put her in various positions and take pictures of her,’” Franken was quoted saying.

The article, along with a 2000 Playboy column in which Franken talked about fantasizing a machine would perform oral sex on him, was used to attack Franken during his 2008 Senate campaign in Minnesota. Republican women also gathered to demand Franken explain himself, according to the Pioneer Press.

Franken eventually apologized for his crude remarks, but he later wrote in his book, “Al Franken: Giant of the Senate,” that he faked the apology to get the necessary support for his election win, according to the New York Times. "
 
Cardinal said:
Yup, I saw that. That's certainly important, though it still remains to be seen how all of this plays out. My feeling (though I could obviously end up being wrong) is that this is a one-off incident, and combined with forgiveness from the victim and a near instantaneous full apology by Franken, it's possible the public forgives him.

Or they don't. Even if he isn't a serial sexual predator, grabbing the breasts of sleeping women for a "haha" moment isn't especially in vogue these days.
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Pretending to grab the breasts of a sleeping woman. You could see the shadows under his hands. He was not actually touching her. It was lewd, vulgar and totally inappropriate, however.
 
Time to kick Al in the Frankenberries
 
DiAnna said:
It's not assault, since I don't believe he was actually touching her, but it is a form of sexual harassment, in my opinion.
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I give Franken credit. She did have a nice pair. I am not sure about now. In her prime, she was quite something.
 
DiAnna said:
Pretending to grab the breasts of a sleeping woman. You could see the shadows under his hands. He was not actually touching her. It was lewd, vulgar and totally inappropriate, however.
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Yes, but I'm really not going to split hairs over this. While making contact obviously would have taken it to another dimension, he violated and humiliated her in a way that nobody should dismiss out of hand. I'm not interested in dismissing what he did, but whether there is a pattern of behavior that defines him as this kind of person. I'm not yet convinced that he is.

I have some personal beliefs on "acts that define a person." A systemic routine of behavior is the least ambiguous quality of a person, but I also think a single act is added to the list. I did a bad thing once that I'm ashamed of (though nothing rapey, so don't worry), and though I never did anything like that again, that act was added into the total bucket of actions that define Cardinal. We are the sum of our actions, though not all bad acts are automatically disqualifying. Rather, they're disqualifying if we adopt those acts as acceptable and repeated traits, such as Moore, Clinton, Weinstein and Trump did.
 
You can't be groped through a ballistic vest. The kiss would be a problem, though.
 
Al said he was sorry let's move on... BTW where all these women who said trump did naughty things them? SPEAK UP.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Are you joking?

There has been no beating yet!
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No I'm not joking this is and was wrong the man said sorry what more does the GOP want? When there own party members mostly guys I assume get away with this crap and never says sorry we are truly dealing with a type of evil on a different level with today's GOP. Trump has done and said much worst
 
Skeptic Bob said:
You can't be groped through a ballistic vest. The kiss would be a problem, though.
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The pic is a problem. You're not seeing the whole picture. She rejected his advance before the pic, vehemently so. In that light, his behavior in the pic was bullying. It was "you can't stop me". In this regard that behavior is a threat.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
You can't be groped through a ballistic vest. The kiss would be a problem, though.
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She consented to the kiss, but only after being harassed, so it's less of a problem than it could have been. The fact that he took the kiss far enough that she shoved him away and warned him never to do that again made the inappropriate photo seem like a bullying move to humiliate a woman who'd just rejected him.

Now if he'd tried to kiss her again after being warned not to, that would rise to the level of sexual assault/battery instead of sexual harassment, in my view. Any way you slice it, it was childish, vulgar, lewd and totally inappropriate behavior.
 
DiAnna said:
She consented to the kiss, but only after being harassed, so it's less of a problem than it could have been. The fact that he took the kiss far enough that she shoved him away and warned him never to do that again made the inappropriate photo seem like a bullying move to humiliate a woman who'd just rejected him.

Now if he'd tried to kiss her again after being warned not to, that would rise to the level of sexual assault/battery instead of sexual harassment, in my view. Any way you slice it, it was childish, vulgar, lewd and totally inappropriate behavior.
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"Harassed" meaning of course "Asked more times than someone has decided is proper, which well may be one".

SCREW THAT, women are not invalids, but if they insist that needing to say no more times than they want is abuse then I am all for revisiting that old idea that they are the weaker sex.
 
ecofarm said:
The pic is a problem. You're not seeing the whole picture. She rejected his advance before the pic, vehemently so. In that light, his behavior in the pic was bullying. It was "you can't stop me". In this regard that behavior is a threat.
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Fair point.
 
holbritter said:
It's kinda clear his hands are above her chest, not touching them.
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Then why would he apologize for groping her if he didn't.
She says he did. It is clear that his hand are on her boobs.
 
Absentglare said:
What private parts did he touch?

Because if things like vests are "private parts", we're all going to be "guilty".
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Touch her boobs even through clothes is groping. How you do not know this is amazing.
The question is why are you condoning and defending such actions?
 
ludin said:
Then why would he apologize for groping her if he didn't.
She says he did. It is clear that his hand are on her boobs.
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No, it isn't. The shadow of his hands show that he was not actually touching her. It was humiliating, perhaps revenge for rejection, but he did NOT actually touch her. Get a grip.
 
ludin said:
Touch her boobs even through clothes is groping. How you do not know this is amazing.
The question is why are you condoning and defending such actions?
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He did NOT do that. Why in hell are you pretending that he did?? Partisan oneupmanshiip? I thought better of you.
 
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