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Conservatives demand changes to House GOP tax bill

Fenton said:
Those are really great ideas, especially the tax break for small bussineses, so I get why theyre pushing for these changes.

The last thing the Left wants is for the GOP to push through pro-growth, pro-bussiness tax policies, and it has nothing to do with the 1 percent.

Tax cuts would lead to substantial economic growth and thats a Political liabillity for the Democrats
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Great googily moogily!!

Fenton! Wake up, man! It is not a "left" or "right" thing. Whatever the GOP winds up doing is not for you and has everything to do with the 1%. Nick Hanauer is a billionaire who has tried to set the record straight for years and years. But most billionaires run from what he reports, and the Middle Class, especially the right, keep deceiving themselves...



Why does it seem like I'm the only one? Anybody? Good grief.
 
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chuckiechan said:
If we didn’t have 22 million new mouths to feed with illegal immigration, and unspecified levels of legal immigration, you might have an argument. But if you grow the population without growing the pie as Obama did, everyone but the elite get poorer.

Economic eexpansion without debt increase at the same rate makes the debt burden correspondingly smaller.

Tax cuts are merely a fancy way of saying “we’re going to let you keep more of your money yourself”. What’s not to love?
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Yes, we have another winner, yet another one who has absolutely no clue about what illegal aliens and LEGAL immigrants do here in America!

Are you familiar with the Cato Institute? They're the scholarly wing of the very right-wing Heritage Foundation. Here's where they busted the myth that immigrants (legal or illegal) are somehow a burden on America's economy:

Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during the start of their working years —between the ages of 18 and 35 — they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

And when it comes to crime, what did the Cato Institute find?

Our headline finding is that both illegal immigrants and legal immigrants have incarceration rates far below those of native-born Americans—at 0.85 percent, 0.47 percent, and 1.53 percent, respectively. Excluding illegal immigrants who are incarcerated or in detention for immigration offenses lowers their incarceration rate to 0.5 percent of their population—within a smidge of legal immigrants. As a result, native-born Americans are overrepresented in the incarcerated population while illegal and legal immigrants are underrepresented, relative to their respective shares of the population.

On a more personal note, I'm very close to the immigrant community...and what is said above is true. Immigrants don't come here to "live off the dole" - they come here to WORK, and they work harder than most native-born Americans. That, and the vast majority of them do their damnedest to stay out of trouble if for no other reason than to keep from being deported.

So do yourself a favor and start listening to both sides, instead of listening to only those who tell you only what you wanted to hear.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Yes, we have another winner, yet another one who has absolutely no clue about what illegal aliens and LEGAL immigrants do here in America!

Are you familiar with the Cato Institute? They're the scholarly wing of the very right-wing Heritage Foundation. Here's where they busted the myth that immigrants (legal or illegal) are somehow a burden on America's economy:

Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during the start of their working years —between the ages of 18 and 35 — they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.

And when it comes to crime, what did the Cato Institute find?

Our headline finding is that both illegal immigrants and legal immigrants have incarceration rates far below those of native-born Americans—at 0.85 percent, 0.47 percent, and 1.53 percent, respectively. Excluding illegal immigrants who are incarcerated or in detention for immigration offenses lowers their incarceration rate to 0.5 percent of their population—within a smidge of legal immigrants. As a result, native-born Americans are overrepresented in the incarcerated population while illegal and legal immigrants are underrepresented, relative to their respective shares of the population.

On a more personal note, I'm very close to the immigrant community...and what is said above is true. Immigrants don't come here to "live off the dole" - they come here to WORK, and they work harder than most native-born Americans. That, and the vast majority of them do their damnedest to stay out of trouble if for no other reason than to keep from being deported.

So do yourself a favor and start listening to both sides, instead of listening to only those who tell you only what you wanted to hear.
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So are they creating jobs that don’t need doing, or are they holding wages down so no one else is so desperate they will do them?

I had an illegal paint the inside of my house. I supplied the paint. I calculated his earning to be around $7.50 an hour. He was a friend of a friend from our church He bid it, not me.

Great job at half the price. I assume he paid taxes on his cash income.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
You do know that there's very little hard historical evidence to show that tax cuts result in economic growth, right? All that Reagan's trickle-down economics did was to make the rich MUCH richer. And given that the tax cuts are going to blow up our deficit (AGAIN, never mind that Obama cut the deficit in half), how is that going to help shrink our federal debt? If you'll recall, Reagan nearly tripled the debt while he was in office.
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This delivers. Reaganomics resulted in wealth hoarding while he made deficit spending sexy, sexy time. We see how that worked out.
 
chuckiechan said:
I don't know what will eventually be the end game, but the few hold out's are mostly anti-Trump republicans who understand if the economy gears up as expected with the cuts, their chances of beating Trump in 2020 are close to zero.
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LOL Why is any effect on the economy "expected" from tax cut on corporations and the rich? Profits will be even higher and the rich will be even richer and that is about it. Record profits for corporations are already the rule and the wealthy have been socking away trillions for years. What has changed? 2020 is a long way away and even Bannon thinks Trump will not be in office then anyway
 
iguanaman said:
LOL Why is any effect on the economy "expected" from tax cut on corporations and the rich? Profits will be even higher and the rich will be even richer and that is about it. Record profits for corporations are already the rule and the wealthy have been socking away trillions for years. What has changed? 2020 is a long way away and even Bannon thinks Trump will not be in office then anyway
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Tax cuts that aren't offset by reduced spending is economics disaster 101...but people still get all moist over hearing "tax cuts." We are a nation of sound bites, tweets, and 24 hour news cycle that highlight war, terrorism, mass shootings, and Donald effing Trump more than real domestic issues. I personally know a large number of people that don't want to hear details if it takes more than a couple of minutes to explain. They got thangs to do ya know.

These things are complex, which is why we just keep cycling they types in and out of political office but never see change. Ain't nobody got time for details...UFC is comin on!
 
Fenton said:
Texas ( Yay Texas !! ) has been applying supply side strategies for years now and to great effect. Our economy has grown consistently over the last 8 years and is currently booming thanks to our bussiness friendly atmosphere.

Low tax burdens and low regulatory burdens incintivize new private sector investment from all over the US and the World and thats led to job creation

We also have a 10 billion dolllar rainy day fund ( budget surplus ) so the talking point that tax cuts dont pay for themselves is Left wing nonsense
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Texas has a crapton of revenue from oil and gas industry.

Kansas City, MO and Kansas City, KS are in the same metro area. Each state has tax incentives for "job creation." So businesses move employees literally across town and take tax credits for "job creation." Then they move the employees back and get another tax credit.

This isn't creating jobs. It's moving them.
 
chuckiechan said:
So are they creating jobs that don’t need doing, or are they holding wages down so no one else is so desperate they will do them?

I had an illegal paint the inside of my house. I supplied the paint. I calculated his earning to be around $7.50 an hour. He was a friend of a friend from our church He bid it, not me.

Great job at half the price. I assume he paid taxes on his cash income.
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Ask the fruit farmers across our country if the illegals are doing jobs that don't need doing...and think about that the next time you go buy groceries.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Ask the fruit farmers across our country if the illegals are doing jobs that don't need doing...and think about that the next time you go buy groceries.
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You illustrate how compassionate people are being misdirected by the use of “The big lie” by politicians and the MSM.

Sure we need agricultural workers, and there are programs in place to get them, but they also have clerks, cashiers, brick masons, millwrights, glaziers, dental techs, medical techs, truck drivers. This list goes on. To try to ignore the displacement of citizens in favor of more docile and cheap low wage immigrant workers is to believe the biggest of the “big lies” promoted by democrats who seek to change the nations demographic to mirror California’s - a Democrat poverty state with three classes - public workers, and a middle class with greatly lowered expectations, and the poor.
 
chuckiechan said:
You illustrate how compassionate people are being misdirected by the use of “The big lie” by politicians and the MSM.

Sure we need agricultural workers, and there are programs in place to get them, but they also have clerks, cashiers, brick masons, millwrights, glaziers, dental techs, medical techs, truck drivers. This list goes on. To try to ignore the displacement of citizens in favor of more docile and cheap low wage immigrant workers is to believe the biggest of the “big lies” promoted by democrats who seek to change the nations demographic to mirror California’s - a Democrat poverty state with three classes - public workers, and a middle class with greatly lowered expectations, and the poor.
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'Scuse you, but have you seen the unemployment rate lately? I look around and there's LOTS of places saying "help wanted"...meaning that your claim that the low-level jobs are being taken up by illegals is, well, full of crap.

And when it comes to California, have you been to the Deep South recently? If you'll do some actual RESEARCH instead of just relying on what you think you know, you'd find that when it comes to homicide rates, violent crime rates, educational attainment rates, percentage of people covered by health insurance, percentage of population in jail, teenage pregnancy rates, and poverty rates, blue states are generally significantly better off than red states. It's really easy to look up - just Google each metric e.g. "teenage pregnancy rate by state" so you can see for yourself.

Don't take my word for it - look it up for yourself. Or are you afraid to look at the stats which completely obviate your claims?
 
Rogue Valley said:
Conservatives demand changes to House GOP tax bill



Shrink tax cuts on middle and working-class households to provide larger tax cuts for the wealthy. Adds $1.5 Trillion to the deficit. Now that's the GOP we all know.
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Forget tax cuts. I get to pay more even though I am in the 25% bracket because I live in NY. We already contribute more than we receive from the Federal Government. Pretty much assholes.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
Glen Contrarian said:
'Scuse you, but have you seen the unemployment rate lately? I look around and there's LOTS of places saying "help wanted"...meaning that your claim that the low-level jobs are being taken up by illegals is, well, full of crap.

And when it comes to California, have you been to the Deep South recently? If you'll do some actual RESEARCH instead of just relying on what you think you know, you'd find that when it comes to homicide rates, violent crime rates, educational attainment rates, percentage of people covered by health insurance, percentage of population in jail, teenage pregnancy rates, and poverty rates, blue states are generally significantly better off than red states. It's really easy to look up - just Google each metric e.g. "teenage pregnancy rate by state" so you can see for yourself.

Don't take my word for it - look it up for yourself. Or are you afraid to look at the stats which completely obviate your claims?
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The “Help Wanted” signs are up partly because many Mexicans are going home* and businesses are afraid the federal government might start enforcing federal employment, and certainly because the economy is improving.

We have a lot of citizens who need to take those jobs.

Where did this mindset come from that it’s OK come come in here illegally and there should be no consequences?

*going home now means going home in your car with all your stuff. Getting deported means being sent home empty handed. They may be illegal, but they aren’t stupid.
 
washunut said:
The senators who currently stated they will not vote for this bill are Corker,McCain and Collins. All anti-Trump,perhaps anti-U.S.
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Yeah great post. McCain is anti US. Brilliant!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
Glen Contrarian said:
'Scuse you, but have you seen the unemployment rate lately? I look around and there's LOTS of places saying "help wanted"...meaning that your claim that the low-level jobs are being taken up by illegals is, well, full of crap.

And when it comes to California, have you been to the Deep South recently? If you'll do some actual RESEARCH instead of just relying on what you think you know, you'd find that when it comes to homicide rates, violent crime rates, educational attainment rates, percentage of people covered by health insurance, percentage of population in jail, teenage pregnancy rates, and poverty rates, blue states are generally significantly better off than red states. It's really easy to look up - just Google each metric e.g. "teenage pregnancy rate by state" so you can see for yourself.

Don't take my word for it - look it up for yourself. Or are you afraid to look at the stats which completely obviate your claims?
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? I merely stated that illegals job skills are interchangeable with citizens in most areas, and live more efficienty since they are here temporarily.
 
chuckiechan said:
The “Help Wanted” signs are up partly because many Mexicans are going home* and businesses are afraid the federal government might start enforcing federal employment, and certainly because the economy is improving.

We have a lot of citizens who need to take those jobs.

Where did this mindset come from that it’s OK come come in here illegally and there should be no consequences?

*going home now means going home in your car with all your stuff. Getting deported means being sent home empty handed. They may be illegal, but they aren’t stupid.
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No, they're NOT because "many Mexicans are going home". Our unemployment rate was at 5% early last year, before Trump ever got the GOP nomination. It was never a matter of the "illegals stealing American jobs" - it's automation. Or haven't you noticed that most of our cars are made mostly by robots now? Even Wal-Mart is looking at having robots take over stocking shelves...thereby removing most of the workers that they have stocking shelves at night, all across the nation.
 
chuckiechan said:
? I merely stated that illegals job skills are interchangeable with citizens in most areas, and live more efficienty since they are here temporarily.
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This is the last of what you stated: "To try to ignore the displacement of citizens in favor of more docile and cheap low wage immigrant workers is to believe the biggest of the “big lies” promoted by democrats who seek to change the nations demographic to mirror California’s - a Democrat poverty state with three classes - public workers, and a middle class with greatly lowered expectations, and the poor." (boldface mine)

In other words, you were operating on the assumption that California - and by extension most (or all) blue states - have only three classes consisting of public workers, a not-so-well-off middle class, and the poor.

I showed you how to easily disprove your assumption. It's up to you to garner enough courage to actually look to see if your assumptions are as accurate as you seem to believe.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
This is the last of what you stated: "To try to ignore the displacement of citizens in favor of more docile and cheap low wage immigrant workers is to believe the biggest of the “big lies” promoted by democrats who seek to change the nations demographic to mirror California’s - a Democrat poverty state with three classes - public workers, and a middle class with greatly lowered expectations, and the poor." (boldface mine)

In other words, you were operating on the assumption that California - and by extension most (or all) blue states - have only three classes consisting of public workers, a not-so-well-off middle class, and the poor.

I showed you how to easily disprove your assumption. It's up to you to garner enough courage to actually look to see if your assumptions are as accurate as you seem to believe.
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That is the trajectory California is on. You assumptions are right out of the DNC talking points hand book.
 
chuckiechan said:
That is the trajectory California is on. You assumptions are right out of the DNC talking points hand book.
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Really? That's the trajectory California's on? Then somebody forgot to tell California. If California's a 'bad state for business,' why is it leading the nation in job and GDP growth?

Or could it be that you're just parroting what you read on right-wing sites that are telling you what you want to hear, knowing that you'd never double-check the accuracy of their claims?
 
chuckiechan said:
Because of the outsized influence of Silicon Valley.
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Wrong. That's just one part of it. Most movies you watch are made there, each one bringing in tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars into California from other states and from around the world. Next time you buy a bottle of wine, look at how many are grown in California. Look at how many of your veggies and fruits are grown there. Look at how many of our defense industries are based there (and let's not forget aerospace industries, too). Oh, and there's the fact that they receive more tourism than any other state in the nation. There's a reason why if California were a nation, they'd have the sixth-highest GDP on the planet.

Want a little free-market proof? It's easy - when a place is wracked with poverty, property values go down. Right? Right. As an example, just look at property values in Detroit. But what are property values in California? Among the highest in the nation. If California were half so poverty-stricken as you seem to believe, this could not be the case.

Next time, do try to develop a habit of checking the accuracy of the claims that people make.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Wrong. That's just one part of it. Most movies you watch are made there, each one bringing in tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars into California from other states and from around the world. Next time you buy a bottle of wine, look at how many are grown in California. Look at how many of your veggies and fruits are grown there. Look at how many of our defense industries are based there (and let's not forget aerospace industries, too). Oh, and there's the fact that they receive more tourism than any other state in the nation. There's a reason why if California were a nation, they'd have the sixth-highest GDP on the planet.

Want a little free-market proof? It's easy - when a place is wracked with poverty, property values go down. Right? Right. As an example, just look at property values in Detroit. But what are property values in California? Among the highest in the nation. If California were half so poverty-stricken as you seem to believe, this could not be the case.

Next time, do try to develop a habit of checking the accuracy of the claims that people make.
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There is something to be said for the “rah-rah”side of the economy, but too many people aren’t part of it:

What's Wrong With the Economy? | California Policy Center

Also, many cities and counties are verging on bankruptcy due to pensions they can’t pay, and the average worker outside the Bay Area has not seen a raise in ten years, yet the state keeps raising taxes.

They are two sides to an economy. The asset owners side, each you showed, and the workers side which I’m showing.

~ 50% of the budget is medical, pensions, and welfare, yet they never raise taxes for that, they just siphon off the taxes from other programs.
 
Fenton said:
Those are really great ideas, especially the tax break for small bussineses, so I get why theyre pushing for these changes.

The last thing the Left wants is for the GOP to push through pro-growth, pro-bussiness tax policies, and it has nothing to do with the 1 percent.

Tax cuts would lead to substantial economic growth and thats a Political liabillity for the Democrats
Click to expand...

Can I give you two examples where that DIDN'T work?
Reaganomics--lead to recession of 2009
Kansas 2017
 
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