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Air Force failed to report Texas suspect's convictions to FBI

Saladin4 said:
Big Gubber-Mint didn't stop this Gun Nut from purchasing 2 Military style weapons.....
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"Military style". You do realize they have no real performance difference than the "hunting style" variant?
 
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Praxas said:
Well at this time that same public is saying those gun laws are necessary.



Nope I don't at all however when folks scream that gun laws should be repealed simply because it didn't prevent a mass shooting, they deserve to get called out on their idiocy. There are many on this board that can argue successfully against gun laws, but they don't use the fact someone committed a crime to say that a law should be repealed because of it.
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Well, if there is any idiocy involved here, it is manifested by the effort to double down on measures that have failed consistently.
 
cuban smokes said:
Air Force failed to report Texas suspect's convictions to FBI

By Luis Martinez, Jack Date, Trish Turner, Nov 6, 2017, 6:58 PM ET

Air Force failed to report Texas suspect's convictions to FBI - ABC News

The Air Force failed to submit information about Texas church shooting suspect Devin Kelley's convictions to the FBI, the Air Force said today.

The failure was a result of what one law enforcement source described to ABC News as an administrative error. Had the conviction information been entered into the NCIC, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System should have prevented the sale of the firearms Kelley purchased, law enforcement sources said.

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Here we are, 16 years post ****ing 9/11 & this is the kinda **** we get from OUR government? ......................... **** them ....................

If this act, by this individual does not qualify as 'domestic terrorism' then I would suggest that EVERYONE go tell their government to go **** off ............. they dropped the Goddamn ****ing ball ..............
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Obviously more laws are required so that criminals and government employees can more easily adhere to them.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Well, if there is any idiocy involved here, it is manifested by the effort to double down on measures that have failed consistently.
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Take a look at the number of people in this country and then look at the mass shootings. they don't even compare to one another and those that break the law by mass shootings is exponentially smaller than other crimes committed so I'd say they have done a pretty good job statistically. There are far more laws still on the books that have "failed miserably" and "failed considerably" that are still there. Again, laws are not there to PREVENT crime, they are there to punish those that break the law.
 
Thoreau72 said:
If it worked, how did he buy the gun?

Being written down on paper does not make a law 'work'. Proper and effective enforcement of any given law makes it 'work'. In this case the written law was not enforced. Wishes and good intentions do not count.
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The law is that he is required to pass a background check. The law was properly enforced, however, the data in which it was leveraging was incomplete, thanks to Military incompetence.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN_wPEcVAAAP1XN.jpg:large
 
Praxas said:
What about speeding laws, what about murder laws or for that matter how about showing a law that has prevented all crime in that category. There is no such law, so why is it when a mass shooting happens it is claimed we shouldn't have those laws because it didn't prevent the crime. Laws are not meant to prevent crime but to hold people accountable for when they do break the law.
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some speed limits are arbritrarily set so yes those to an extend.

Nope murder is denying others of thier ultimate right, so no on murder.

hypothetical law is hypothetical.


I am for an instant background check, and we have one, the government failed here, not the existing gun laws. What new law would have stopped this?
 
Praxas said:
Take a look at the number of people in this country and then look at the mass shootings. they don't even compare to one another and those that break the law by mass shootings is exponentially smaller than other crimes committed so I'd say they have done a pretty good job statistically. There are far more laws still on the books that have "failed miserably" and "failed considerably" that are still there. Again, laws are not there to PREVENT crime, they are there to punish those that break the law.
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By your first sentence, it seems you might think that everybody and their brother is waiting to commit mass murder, but somehow a law is restraining him. Your 'statistical analysis inference' is strange.

If you are trying to say that more laws should be repealed, then I agree.

We completely agree that laws are not there to prevent crime, but rather to punish offenders.

So there seems to be some sort of contradiction in the way you view this. IF the law is meant to punish offenders and not to deter potential offenders, then why do you think we need more laws to prevent such events? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying.
 
poweRob said:
You mean these?


Now... Be sure to ignore these while you protect your messiah.
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You mean the ones that didn't stop this guy from buying his guns 4 years ago? This has nothing to do with Trump or Obama.

The Air Force, and likely the other 4 branches of the military, need a deep review of their NICS reporting procedures and a quick turnaround on reporting what was missed.
 
Samhain said:
The law is that he is required to pass a background check. The law was properly enforced, however, the data in which it was leveraging was incomplete, thanks to Military incompetence.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN_wPEcVAAAP1XN.jpg:large
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So you're saying that the goal and purpose of the law is not to keep weapons out of the hands of dangerous people, but rather to do a perfunctory records check?
 
Thoreau72 said:
By your first sentence, it seems you might think that everybody and their brother is waiting to commit mass murder, but somehow a law is restraining him. Your 'statistical analysis inference' is strange.

If you are trying to say that more laws should be repealed, then I agree.

We completely agree that laws are not there to prevent crime, but rather to punish offenders.

So there seems to be some sort of contradiction in the way you view this. IF the law is meant to punish offenders and not to deter potential offenders, then why do you think we need more laws to prevent such events? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying.
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I don’t think we need new laws but some are saying we need to repeal the laws just because a shooting happened. That to me is silly. You don’t remove a law because someone broke it.
 
Samhain said:
The Air Force clearly screwed the pooch on this one. He should have left military confinement and went straight into prison.
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It seems that the gun laws we have in place would have stopped him, if they sent that info to the FBI. Clearly, we need more laws against administrative errors.
 
Anthony60 said:
It seems that the gun laws we have in place would have stopped him, if they sent that info to the FBI.
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Not necessarily. The Sandy Hook coward merely borrowed his mommy's unsecured weapons. Culture and how we dismissively perceive "guns" is the problem.

I refer you to Switzerland, which actually requires that all able-bodied male citizens keep fully automatic firearms at home in case of a call-up. Switzerland is estimated to have one of the highest personal gun ownership rates in the world. It also has one of the highest gun suicide rates in Europe, however, it also has one of the world's lowest overall homicide rates.

Therefore, we have, and encourage, a bad gun culture.
 
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Praxas said:
I don’t think we need new laws but some are saying we need to repeal the laws just because a shooting happened. That to me is silly. You don’t remove a law because someone broke it.
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I certainly never suggested or advocated for that.

On the issue, my position is that we don't need any more of laws in that category known as "gun control laws", because history has proved again and again that they don't work as intended, unless one claims the intention is to keep the ATF guys busy and growing.
 
MSgt said:
Not necessarily. The Sandy Hook coward merely borrowed his mommy's unsecured weapons. Culture and how we dismissively perceive "guns" is the problem.

I refer you to Switzerland, which actually requires that all able-bodied male citizens keep fully automatic firearms at home in case of a call-up. Switzerland is estimated to have one of the highest personal gun ownership rates in the world. It also has one of the highest gun suicide rates in Europe, however, it also has one of the world's lowest overall homicide rates.

Therefore, we have, and encourage, a bad gun culture.
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I’m not quite sure what you mean by “gun culture” or what is so great about Switzerland in that realm.

Asia has a much higher suicide rate than we do, I imagine people aren’t all that happy over there.


Sent from my iPhone 8 using Telepathy.
 
Anthony60 said:
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “gun culture” or what is so great about Switzerland in that realm.

Asia has a much higher suicide rate than we do, I imagine people aren’t all that happy over there.


Sent from my iPhone 8 using Telepathy.
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I don't care about suicides. The point was to show that Switzerland has one of the highest personal gun ownership rates in the world, yet has none of the type of gun violence that is present in the U.S. The difference is cultural.
 
MSgt said:
I don't care about suicides. The point was to show that Switzerland has one of the highest personal gun ownership rates in the world, yet has none of the type of gun violence that is present in the U.S. The difference is cultural.
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Switzerland has a very small military (5% of it's citizenry) and depends on the a trained militia for its defense in case of need. That's the reason for their record number of guns.
 
MSgt said:
I don't care about suicides. The point was to show that Switzerland has one of the highest personal gun ownership rates in the world, yet has none of the type of gun violence that is present in the U.S. The difference is cultural.
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Isn't it true that they need a special permit to carry the weapons, otherwise they have to be left at home? That it's really for army use? Is it also true that they have less than 50 firearms per 100 people (that they can't leave home with), and we have almost 90 per 100 people?

Also, I know you don't care about suicides, but you can't ignore the fact that the large majority of guns deaths are suicides, some 61% more than homicides.

I think that all this very relevant information shows that there are stark differences between us and Switzerland that can't be glossed over and ignored when trying to do an honest comparison of gun ownership in our two countries.

P.S. They don't have ammo for their weapons, it's kept at a "central location". Oh, and the guns are taken apart.
 
Anthony60 said:
Isn't it true that they need a special permit to carry the weapons, otherwise they have to be left at home? That it's really for army use? Is it also true that they have less than 50 firearms per 100 people (that they can't leave home with), and we have almost 90 per 100 people?

P.S. They don't have ammo for their weapons, it's kept at a "central location". Oh, and the guns are taken apart.
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Oh, I don't know much about the details. It looks like you looked into it. There are Wikipedia pages though...

Switzerland has a strong gun culture compared to other countries in the world. There were 16 completed homicides with a firearm in 2016. Of these, 14 were committed with a handgun... None of the involved weapons were ordnance weapons issued by the Swiss Armed Forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland#Gun_culture_in_Switzerland
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Owners are legally responsible for third-party access to and usage of their weapons. In a referendum in February 2011, voters rejected a citizens' initiative that would have obliged members of the armed services to store their rifles and pistols on military compounds... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms#Switzerland
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Swiss voters have rejected proposed tighter controls on gun ownership, final results show.
Twenty of the 26 cantons and 56.3% of voters rejected the plan, meaning the current system allowing army-issue weapons to be kept at home will remain. Opponents said the move would have undermined trust in the army. Switzerland rejects tighter gun controls - BBC News
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Only 16 deaths by firearm in 2016? So the Swiss struggle with each other over gun control too. But they appear to maintain a level of responsibility towards "weapons," as opposed to our idea of responsibility towards "guns." It's as if we care more about flaunting our "right" than we do about actually respecting it. I'm willing to bet that cute little gun stickers don't adorn the vehicles of the Swiss like they do in America.


Anthony60 said:
Also, I know you don't care about suicides, but you can't ignore the fact that the large majority of guns deaths are suicides, some 61% more than homicides.
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Yeah, the gun makes it quick and easy.

I think we are somewhat talking about the same thing.
 
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Parrish said:
Switzerland has a very small military (5% of it's citizenry) and depends on the a trained militia for its defense in case of need. That's the reason for their record number of guns.
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Yeah...but where are the exponentially growing and escalating mass shootings? That's my point. The Left can't just default to the object and the Right can't just keep ignoring our brand of gun culture.

This Air Force screw up, with apparently a couple other screw ups in the civilian sector, does help the argument that "we have enough laws, but they need enforced." But then there are the Sandy Hook events where taking a gun from a family member still remains. Of course, enforce the laws we have, but we need to start addressing our culture.
 
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