Purge of Saudi princes, businessmen widens, travel curbs imposed

ReverendHellh0und said:

Fake? All the media is using it. if you want to say "unconfirmed" ok. but fake? most likely not.


How many right wing militant athiests do you know?
How many right wing social action guys do you know?
How many right wing environmentalists do you know?


he had one gun. Hardley a "gun nut".

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A high percentage of libertarians aren't religious conservatives.
The tea party was social action.
The Right Way To Be Green ? A CONSERVATIVE ALTERNATIVE TO LIBERAL ENVIRONMENTALISM

You rushed to judgement. The crime wasn't political, it was domestic violence.

You pushed conspiracy theories on the board.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/texas-shooter-conspiracy-theories_us_5a01ed2be4b092053058499e

Good job. I hope you held out for at least a check from GRU.

pillars said:

A high percentage of libertarians aren't religious conservatives.
The tea party was social action.
The Right Way To Be Green ? A CONSERVATIVE ALTERNATIVE TO LIBERAL ENVIRONMENTALISM

You rushed to judgement. The crime wasn't political, it was domestic violence.

You pushed conspiracy theories on the board.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/texas-shooter-conspiracy-theories_us_5a01ed2be4b092053058499e

Good job. I hope you held out for at least a check from GRU.

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I never claimed it political, in fact I stated numerous times it wasn't. I never suggested he was antifa, an activist left winger, communist, islamic, or anything else of that nature. I stated he was a left winger, as a matter of fact, due to his unconfirmed linked in profile. I then also stated that I believe this fact had no bearing on his actions.

ReverendHellh0und said:

I never claimed it political, in fact I stated numerous times it wasn't. I never suggested he was antifa, an activist left winger, communist, islamic, or anything else of that nature. I stated he was a left winger, as a matter of fact, due to his unconfirmed linked in profile. I then also stated that I believe this fact had no bearing on his actions.

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This is an imaginary fact. It isn't true. There is no substantive or confirmed evidence showing that this individual was a leftist, and yet you continue to repeat this misinformation.

Interesting.

pillars said:

This is an imaginary fact. It isn't true. There is no substantive or confirmed evidence showing that this individual was a leftist, and yet you continue to repeat this misinformation.

Interesting.

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Your issue should be with the bbc, the ap, and the several mainstream news sources using the linkdn information.

jmotivator said:

Baywatch and McDonalds are not really the culture I was thinking of. Also, I also don't see American culture as really a "trust" in government. We trust in the wisdom of a separation of powers, the peaceful change of regimes, and an understanding that a good government is not defined solely by getting what we want out of it, and that we have an individually small but collectively essential role in this peaceful balance. Peaceful resolution is definitely not an ideal one could draw from watching American pop culture!

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I'd say a lot of what you mention is really western culture period.

Trust in institutions used to be much higher. They are at a lower point now than they've been since the polling has been out. We are feeling the effects of a lack of trust in institutions as facts seem to be whatever you want to believe and everyone is so cynical about everything. I'd say that lack of trust in institutions (academics/scientists, media, government, police etc) is part of the major problem we are facing right now.

It hasn't always been like that though.

Where American POP culture exists in Iran it exists mostly outside of the dictates of the state at this point. Just as "Baywatch" caught on with the introduction of Satellite TV in Iran, the Iranian government began to ban Satellite TV. Likewise, as I researched this response, I found that there was an illegal underground craze in Iran surrounding the TV show LOST, but efforts to get a translated version released in Iran didn't materialize due to resistance from the government. Apparently an American couldn't walk around in Iran in the time the show was being aired without being innundated by Iranians demanding to information and insight into that show.

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LOL! That's hilarious about LOST.

Salman wants to fundamentally change Saudi Arabia, to put it on a course toward religious moderation and economic diversfication and innovation. No more ISIS, no more AlQaeda, no more purely petro-economy. That's a pretty bold and risky thing to do, and it's going to cause a lot of social upheaval. The US had better closely watch the situation and help head off any coups or rebellions, until such time as the population is more fully onboard and marching to the new tune. There'll always be holdouts and losers in the new arrangement, so it's better to be vigilant against them, and safe rather than sorry.

ReverendHellh0und said:

Trouble in Islamic paradise? Whats going on here? [/FONT][/COLOR]

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sanman said:

Salman wants to fundamentally change Saudi Arabia, to put it on a course toward religious moderation and economic diversfication and innovation. No more ISIS, no more AlQaeda, no more purely petro-economy. That's a pretty bold and risky thing to do, and it's going to cause a lot of social upheaval. The US had better closely watch the situation and help head off any coups or rebellions, until such time as the population is more fully onboard and marching to the new tune. There'll always be holdouts and losers in the new arrangement, so it's better to be vigilant against them, and safe rather than sorry.

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No, its impossible ...the same goes to Venezuela, Putin´s Muscovy , etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent

jmotivator said:

Pretty much. There is some movement towards modernization in Saudi Arabia which is almost like welcome news... except for the history of modernization movements in the Middle East.

I give it 5-10 years and the Kingdom will be overthrown by Wahhabists.

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I believe you have a very realistic expectation here. Modernization, moderation - can work if you give the poor hope. When these rulers and their cronies continue to hoard wealth and maintain one of the widest economic gaps on the planet, the people become desperate and angry and vulnerable to radicalization. Militant Imams have fertile ground for recruitment. You see a watered down version of that in western countries as well, particularly here in the U.S. But it never escalates to more than angry words for the most part.

The Kingdom has maintained a very delicate relationship with the Wahhabis for many years - you don't topple us and we will ignore your preaching of radical Islam, we won't interrupt the large cash flow you enjoy to fund your campaigns, we will let you open your schools wherever you wish, and shield you from external forces. Just don't blow us up.

ReverendHellh0und said:

Your issue should be with the bbc, the ap, and the several mainstream news sources using the linkdn information.

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Citation needed.

pillars said:

Citation needed.

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Again?

seriously?

Who was Texas church gunman Devin Patrick Kelley? - BBC News

"The suspect's LinkedIn page lists the causes he cares about, said to include animal welfare, arts and culture, children and civil rights. He describes himself as a "hard working, dedicated person" who has a high school diploma and is a "management consultant"."

Lerxst said:

I believe you have a very realistic expectation here. Modernization, moderation - can work if you give the poor hope. When these rulers and their cronies continue to hoard wealth and maintain one of the widest economic gaps on the planet, the people become desperate and angry and vulnerable to radicalization. Militant Imams have fertile ground for recruitment. You see a watered down version of that in western countries as well, particularly here in the U.S. But it never escalates to more than angry words for the most part.

The Kingdom has maintained a very delicate relationship with the Wahhabis for many years - you don't topple us and we will ignore your preaching of radical Islam, we won't interrupt the large cash flow you enjoy to fund your campaigns, we will let you open your schools wherever you wish, and shield you from external forces. Just don't blow us up.

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While I agree with you in principle, in practice the route to radicalization isn't so straight and can't really be defined in Western terms. Militant Islamists have roughly the same income representation as their source populations. The 9/11 Hijackers were all from well to do families, Bin Laden was a millionaire. The radical Mullahs of Iran aren't hurting for money.

Interestingly, the average foot soldier in the Iraqi insurgency wasn't fighting because they were poor. In many cases they were fighting as a way out from under religious restrictions they face under Islam. When fighting for the cause, radical Imams regularly issue fatwas excusing those engaged in jihad from the damnation of the most common vices. ISIS fighters are doped up on captagon, the average Insurgent hideout is awash in booze and porn magazines.

Life in the Middle East is dull when under the thumb of Sharia and the constant watch of the moral police, jihad is an escape from the crippling boredom through the thrill of guiltless vice.

Saudi Arabia SUCKS...Embarrassing that in 2017 America still imports OIL from these thugs...The sooner America can cut off ties with the despots that rule the better...

jmotivator said:

While I agree with you in principle, in practice the route to radicalization isn't so straight and can't really be defined in Western terms. Militant Islamists have roughly the same income representation as their source populations. The 9/11 Hijackers were all from well to do families, Bin Laden was a millionaire. The radical Mullahs of Iran aren't hurting for money.

Interestingly, the average foot soldier in the Iraqi insurgency wasn't fighting because they were poor. In many cases they were fighting as a way out from under religious restrictions they face under Islam. When fighting for the cause, radical Imams regularly issue fatwas excusing those engaged in jihad from the damnation of the most common vices. ISIS fighters are doped up on captagon, the average Insurgent hideout is awash in booze and porn magazines.

Life in the Middle East is dull when under the thumb of Sharia and the constant watch of the moral police, jihad is an escape from the crippling boredom through the thrill of guiltless vice.

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Very interesting, I must admit that I have never considered that fighting for ISIL was a means to escape Sharia law, since in it's most aberrant of actions they slaughter people for disobeying Sharia law. I have read several books about the subject, but none of them really explained that ISIL fighters were joining the fight so they get away with sinning and enjoy vices otherwise denied to them. There was never any denying or ignoring that ISIL fighters committed many acts that were in direct conflict with the teaching of Mohamed, but that there was a great deal of contradictory and hypocritical behavior that was exhibited. I appreciate your insight and am going to read more into this,

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer that this was the only way that militant Islamist's are recruited, it is however a large factor. The poor are among the most at-risk for being radicalized because of their perception that they are being made to suffer under the rule of corrupt, elites who ignore the teachings of Mohamed in favor of cavorting with wealthy western infidels and hoarding the resources of the nation away for a select few. Modernization is a good thing, but it also attracts a great deal of resentment from those who already believe that western influence has undermined their ability to live and be relatively prosperous. The story, whether true or not, makes for a very compelling call to action in the slums of Islamic countries.

Certainly, people from any walk of life -rich, poor, educated, uneducated, etc. - can be recruited and radicalized. The reason I focused on the poor is because that is the largest pool of potential candidates for radicalization. They simply outnumber other economic classes.