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US special forces 'fought Niger ambush alone after local troops fled'

ecofarm said:
I didn't see combat. I've said so since day one in my hello thread OP. You can't fault me for that, it was the opposite of my will. I signed up, during war, not to merely be on the front line, I signed up to be behind the enemy line, as the 82nd is intended to be. The war ended before my training. Is my service less than a non combat arms who deployed but never saw combat? I was racing to be the first infantry replacement in the 82nd, remfs were on vacation in a desert.

I chose to be in combat behind enemy lines, that I didn't get what I wanted despite all possible timing cannot be held against me. I didn't choose to miss combat.

But people their mos. That's on them.
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Thanks for your service!
 
ecofarm said:
In the army, our contract has mos and unit. Mine was 11x, jump school and 82nd all in contract. The only way I wouldn't get at least that was failing a school.

Marines still don't choose mos let alone unit, right?

Anything beyond contract is voluntary. A guy does not sign for mechanic at Ft. Knox (random example, dunno unit) and get sent to support SF on patrol against his wishes. If his unit is deployed with infantry and joins them on patrol (does that happen?), he should be brought up to speed quickly. There's no "oops, I slipped and fell into an SF patrol", right?
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MoS? Some do. Unit? No way.

It depends on ASVAB, need, etc. I made sure that I was guaranteed 25xx (communications) in 1992. I wanted to be a Radioman (2531), but got Wireman (2512). But circumstances were that I wound up in the infantry for my first four years. I was attached into a line company (grunts), where they rated one Radioman and one Wireman per. With little use for a Wireman in a line company, this T/O (Table of Organization) line number was just a way to get a second Comm guy. I became a Radioman the entire time.

But most come in open contract.
 
MSgt said:
apdst said:
Army soldiers qualify annually. I'm not sure if you misunderstood that, or if you're being dishonest. I'm sure it's the fore and not the latter.[\quote]

It is not dishonesty. I can't find a single source that expresses that soldiers are required to qualify annually. All I keep coming across is that a qualification score older than 24 months cannot be used for promotion. That tells me that there is no annual requirement. Even on the Wikipedia page for "Marksmanship badges (US Military)" there is no time standard for qualification. Within the Marine Corps section, however, there is...





It's about exploiting the potential of the weapon in order to create confidence and proficiency at extreme lethal distances, not the technical of a cartridge. Again, I refer you to the difference between the Army and Marine Corps cultures when trying to describe "every Marine a rifleman."



This reply should tell you and others where your mind is in this discussion. It is not about facing the realities. But the Gulf War scenario that you broughyt should also tell you something...



So, even the threat of the Marines coming in from the sea was enough for Saddam Hussein to redirect his forces to what he thought was going to be the bigger threat. But let's move forward again to the Iraq invasion. Again, why did the White House and the Pentagon want the invasion (with Army commanders) to be spear headed by Marines and not the heavier fitted Army infantry? This is not about who's better. That is silly. This is about recognizing that "every Marine a rifleman" means something and that "every soldier a rifleman" really doesn't.
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........

c. Based on the commander's evaluation, goals, and missions, training events are identified that should be conducted quarterly, semiannually, or annually. Rifle marksmanship programs must be continuous. While the unit may only qualify its soldiers annually or semiannually, test results show that sustainment training is required at least quarterly to maintain marksmanship skills.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c01.htm#sectioni
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MSgt said:
MoS? Some do. Unit? No way.

It depends on ASVAB, need, etc. I made sure that I was guaranteed 25xx (communications) in 1992. I wanted to be a Radioman (2531), but got Wireman (2512). But circumstances were that I wound up in the infantry for my first four years. I was attached into a line company (grunts), where they rated one Radioman and one Wireman per. With little use for a Wireman in a line company, this T/O (Table of Organization) line number was just a way to get a second Comm guy. I became a Radioman the entire time.

But most come in open contract.
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Infantry is the least requirements yet surprisingly my company, heavy weapons 11h, was mostly smart dudes. My platoon was no slouch intellectually except a simpleton or two who didn't try. My asvab was top 1% and I was leaving a private university; they wanted me to do all kinds of different jobs. Made me wait an hour or two at the sign up center while they tried to find 82nd guaranteed. After an hour, they came back and offered jump school and 10th Mtn, I said no. They finally offered delayed enlistment, Aug to Dec, with 82 in contract. I signed and started working out and running. Georgia was record cold that winter on Sand Hill. I was goin' to war.
 
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ecofarm said:
Infantry is the least requirements yet surprisingly my company, heavy weapons 11h, was mostly smart dudes. My platoon was no slouch intellectually except a simpleton or two who didn't try. My asvab was top 1% and I was leaving a private university; they wanted me to do all kinds of different jobs. Made me wait an hour or two at the sign up center while they tried to find 82nd guaranteed. After an hour, they came back and offered jump school and 10th Mtn, I said no. They finally offered delayed enlistment, Aug to Dec, with 82 in contract. I signed and started working out and running. Georgia was record cold that winter on Sand Hill. I was goin' to war.
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I didn't get an option when I was reclassified as an 11M.
 
apdst said:
I didn't get an option when I was reclassified as an 11M.
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They decided what 11x (contract couldn't guarantee 11b) got after basic phase before ait phase. High asvabs got 11h, then 11c, then 11b.
 
ecofarm said:
They decided what 11x (contract cant guarantee 11b) got after basic phase before ait phase. High asvabs got 11h, then 11c, then 11b.
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I seriously think they picked us at random. The day before graduation from infantry school, the senior drill called out half the company and told us not to pack our ****, that we were staying. There was no ryhme, or reason to the names they called, except none of us were overly tall, nor wide.
 
ecofarm said:
Infantry is the least requirements yet surprisingly my company, heavy weapons 11h, was mostly smart dudes. My platoon was no slouch intellectually except a simpleton or two who didn't try. My asvab was top 1% and I was leaving a private university; they wanted me to do all kinds of different jobs. Made me wait an hour or two at the sign up center while they tried to find 82nd guaranteed. After an hour, they came back and offered jump school and 10th Mtn, I said no. They finally offered delayed enlistment, Aug to Dec, with 82 in contract. I signed and started working out and running. Georgia was record cold that winter on Sand Hill. I was goin' to war.
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I signed up for 11B with Airborne school and ended up getting stationed in Germany with the 173rd. The end of my OSUT at Sand Hill was in January and I remember feeling near death freezing my ass off all night on the final FTX. Sand Hill is just the most miserable place in the world. I'd rather be in Afghanistan.

Also: spent a while at Bragg. **** Bragg, **** Fayettnam and **** North Carolina.
 
apdst said:
I seriously think they picked us at random. The day before graduation from infantry school, the senior drill called out half the company and told us not to pack our ****, that we were staying. There was no ryhme, or reason to the names they called, except none of us were overly tall, nor wide.
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Mos is different today. My mos nor my unit, last I checked, is active. Maybe it was at the end of some infantry school after basic, that sounds right. But filling 11h and c slots was pretty much done on asvab as we knew ours.
 
Based on the commander's evaluation, goals, and missions, training events are identified that should be conducted quarterly, semiannually, or annually. Rifle marksmanship programs must be continuous. While the unit may only qualify its soldiers annually or semiannually, test results show that sustainment training is required at least quarterly to maintain marksmanship skills.
........
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Am I not seeing something here? I thought you had something new for me to learn with this, but this is illusive and is aimed towards infantry only...

IET provides field units soldiers who have been trained and who have demonstrated proficiency to standard in basic rifle marksmanship. The strategy for sustaining the basic marksmanship skills taught in IET is periodic preliminary rifle instruction, followed by instructional and qualification range firing. A unit must set up a year-round program to sustain skills.
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This is not a requirement for all Army personnel to qualify annually. This is for "field units." In other words, infantry. What about the guy playing trumpet in the band? This shouldn't be so difficult to find. At this point I am more curious at what the requirement actually is. If there was a requirement for all soldiers to train annually, then it should be in black and white. There is no separate qualification rules for Marine infantry versus Marine Corps. There are no "field units" and then everybody else. Most all units go to the field. And all Marines are required annually to qual, thus "every Marine a rifleman." It breeds a soldierly and combative culture. The weapon, must be stressed even for non-infantry soldiers.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
I signed up for 11B with Airborne school and ended up getting stationed in Germany with the 173rd. The end of my OSUT at Sand Hill was in January and I remember feeling near death freezing my ass off all night on the final FTX. Sand Hill is just the most miserable place in the world. I'd rather be in Afghanistan.

Also: spent a while at Bragg. **** Bragg, **** Fayettnam and **** North Carolina.
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There was a big flat hill with a track and the wind there was something.

What about that town an hour north or west of that to Charlotte iirc.
 
MSgt said:
It is not dishonesty. I can't find a single source that expresses that soldiers are required to qualify annually. All I keep coming across is that a qualification score older than 24 months cannot be used for promotion.
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You qualify every year in the Army with your standard issue rifle. I just re-qual'd a few months ago, almost exactly a year to the day of my previous qualification. This is the standard across the Army.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Also: spent a while at Bragg. **** Bragg, **** Fayettnam and **** North Carolina.
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Ya know The Simpsons 'Flaming Moe's' is The Flaming Mug. He's from Fayetteville. Early 90s, 'nickle night' was serious.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
You qualify every year in the Army with your standard issue rifle. I just re-qual'd a few months ago, almost exactly a year to the day of my previous qualification. This is the standard across the Army.
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Very well. I don't know how we got side tracked into a qualification detail anyway.
 
MSgt said:
The only part of this that should concern you is what I emboldened. It doesn't matter that most of the ambushed unit had no combat experience. They trained for it, and nobody has experience until they do.

Them not being warned comes down to whether or not there was something to warn them about. If there was, then that would be an intel and leadership failure. And we do not know the conduct of the troops in question in regards to setting up their own security.

As for what are we doing in Niger, it has nothing to do with it. We are doing the same thing that we do all over the world. None of this is as black and white as people want, nor easily confined to a defined battle zone. Half of what's going in, in terms of Islamism and its terrorist symptoms, is social, not a matter of simple militancy. But training local "allies" to fight their own trash is in our best interest.
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From the link
Previous reports had the Soldier not wearing body armor and a lack of heavy weapons.
Questions I have if so are why they did not- why the delay in calling for assistance- the Mirages could /would not fire?? Later a chopper with French troops arrived. What and why was this delayed? They waited an hours to request assistance?? This delay resulted in French troops arriving at least 2 hours later
As to the Niger troops deserting, Officer(s) on the ground should have known if the troops are/were reliable.
Why did the Troops not have the capability to ID enemy forces?



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...niger-desperately-called-for-help-sources-say
The ambush took place at 11:40pm on 4 October after the unit had spent two hours in Tongo Tongo, talking to local elders. The previous night, the Americans had destroyed a camp used by Djoundjoun Cheiffou, a lieutenant of Abu Waleed al-Sahraoui, an Islamic extremist based in neighbouring Mali who last year pledged allegiance to Islamic
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MSgt said:
I know and appreciate this, but this is exactly what I mean. This is a structural and organizational issue.

All Marines, who are not infantry by future MOS, go to Marine Combat Training (MCT) between Boot Camp (little infantry training) and their primary support MOS school. Infantry training continues for these Marines annually in order to enforce the infantry basics in patrolling, organic weaponry, etc. Marine infantry battalions are saturated with support Marines, because they need logistics, mechanics, communications, admin, etc. Ultimately, you are not going to find any Marine unit where their weapons are dirty, rusted out, or clueless as to their environments.

Infantry Marines skip MCT after Boot Camp, because their primary MOS comes from the School of Infantry (SOI). They live and breath infantry.

The Army does its soldiers a disservice by expecting so many of them to never see danger. And when they do, the "well, they aren't infantry" excuse is poor. This separation between Army infantry and "normal" soldiers has created a certain culture that forgives soldiers for being less-than soldierly. The Air Force can get away with this. You've seen their recruitment advertisements that imply that Airmen are either on special force missions or flying jets. This horribly represents what the vast majority of the Air Force does. The Air Force can look at their mass of Air Men and decide that the vast majority of them will never see any danger at all. They can focus soldierly training upon their AFSOC members, while separating the rest. The Army cannot afford to keep doing this to its soldiers. It all comes down to structure and recognizing branch mission. The Army, with it's far deeper vaults, can certainly afford to restructure in a way that treats every soldier as a soldier.
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The Army has recently adopted this idea that every soldiers is first and foremost a soldier, rather than there MOS. We did small squad tactics for a day when I was in AIT for human resources.
 
MSgt said:
Very well. I don't know how we got side tracked into a qualification detail anyway.
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Because some people like to pretend rifle marksmanship is the most determinant factor in measuring the effectiveness and combat capability of a fighting force.
 
MSgt said:
I didn't see this anywhere.
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Not in this link, earlier news reports. As to credibility, I do not know. But I felt it was pertinent, in it is or is not accurate.
 
JANFU said:
Not in this link, earlier news reports. As to credibility, I do not know. But I felt it was pertinent, in it is or is not accurate.
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Oh, it's very pertinent if it is true. It would go to state of mind, culture, and how one presents himself as a soft target.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
The Army has recently adopted this idea that every soldiers is first and foremost a soldier, rather than there MOS.
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This is fantastic news. It will go a long way to changing the culture.
 
MSgt said:
Oh, it's very pertinent if it is true. It would go to state of mind, culture, and how one presents himself as a soft target.
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Goes right to leadership - top down to the lowest ranks.
 
JANFU said:
Goes right to leadership - top down to the lowest ranks.
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Yeah, if I start to get into this bit, all the soldiers on the site flip out, so I will refrain. Besides, we don't even know if dropped body armor or an absence of heavy weapons is true. But if it is, it makes it hard to dismiss the routine Jessica Lynch crap when even Green Berets are guilty of nonchalance. * IF...it's true.

My last 13-man ETT in Afghanistan contained four MAT-Vs, two M240Gs, and an M2. Of course, each member had an M4 and M9. The only Grunt we had was a sniper. My team replaced one of our sister teams that we trained with because they were half wiped out by an extremist (2 dead, 4 wounded) within the ANCOP force.

I see no reason why a Green Beret training team in Niger would be less equipped than special teams of Marines who aren't even 03 infantry.
 
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pillars said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...niger-desperately-called-for-help-sources-say



If this doesn't bring you to tears, you have no heart at all.

I have yet to see a satisfactory answer explaining why US forces were in Niger to begin with. If this was my spouse (who is a 20+ year career military guy), I would be raising holy hell until my questions were answered.
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It's been going on in Iraq & Afghanistan for the past 15 years. The few operators that I know who are still on active duty are lucky enough to serve under a chain of command that will not have anything to do with Iraqi or Afghanistan co-op missions. Same goes for the Paki's Their entire military forces are embedded with radical Islamists.
 
MSgt said:
Yeah, if I start to get into this bit, all the soldiers on the site flip out, so I will refrain. Besides, we don't even know if dropped body armor or an absence of heavy weapons is true. But if it is, it makes it hard to dismiss the routine Jessica Lynch crap when even Green Berets are guilty of nonchalance. * IF...it's true.

My last 13-man ETT in Afghanistan contained four MAT-Vs, two M240Gs, and an M2. Of course, each member had an M4 and M9. The only Grunt we had was a sniper. My team replaced one of our sister teams that we trained with because they were half wiped out by an extremist (2 dead, 4 wounded) within the ANCOP force.

I see no reason why a Green Beret training team in Niger would be less equipped than special teams of Marines who aren't even 03 infantry.
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My apologies- I should have included- If it is true.
 
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