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Catalan ex-President turns himself in to Belgian authorities

poweRob

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
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I hope things don't get violent over there in Spain over this.

Catalan ex-President turns himself in to Belgian authorities

Catalan ex-President Carles Puigdemont and four other Catalan officials sought by Spanish authorities turned themselves in to Belgian police on Sunday, officials said.

A Spanish judge issued an international arrest warrant for Puigdemont on Friday, a day after eight members of the dissolved Catalan government were jailed in Spain.​
 
poweRob said:
I hope things don't get violent over there in Spain over this.

Catalan ex-President turns himself in to Belgian authorities

Catalan ex-President Carles Puigdemont and four other Catalan officials sought by Spanish authorities turned themselves in to Belgian police on Sunday, officials said.

A Spanish judge issued an international arrest warrant for Puigdemont on Friday, a day after eight members of the dissolved Catalan government were jailed in Spain.​
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Catalonia is the wealthiest of Spain's provinces, so they don't want them to go their own way. What will happen? Anyone's guess. Could be another Spanish civil war.
 
It seems that the rest of the world really does not get this democracy thing.

If part of your nation says it wants away then you have to let it go.

You can be slow and definate about it. Construct a process that requires 3 positive votes over 15 years and stuff but if you simply say NO! then you lose any democratic credibility.
 
Tim the plumber said:
It seems that the rest of the world really does not get this democracy thing.

If part of your nation says it wants away then you have to let it go.

You can be slow and definate about it. Construct a process that requires 3 positive votes over 15 years and stuff but if you simply say NO! then you lose any democratic credibility.
Click to expand...

If only someone had so informed Lincoln......
 
poweRob said:
I hope things don't get violent over there in Spain over this.

Catalan ex-President turns himself in to Belgian authorities

Catalan ex-President Carles Puigdemont and four other Catalan officials sought by Spanish authorities turned themselves in to Belgian police on Sunday, officials said.

A Spanish judge issued an international arrest warrant for Puigdemont on Friday, a day after eight members of the dissolved Catalan government were jailed in Spain.​
Click to expand...

The problem is that the EU eradicates any value added by national capitals like Berlin or Madrid. Catalonia Has the weight on its own of countries like Portugal or Austria and is much larger than places like Cyprus, Luxembourg or Malta. It would be much better off on its own.

The member countries realize this and therefore have an informal rule (Prodi Doctrine) that excludes nations that separate from member states. This means excluding EU citizens and punishing them, which signals that the EU is not a bottom up democracy based on the rights of the citizens but a top down organization that thinks it must punish citizens that want to leave the EU as we see with Brexit or break out of member states as we saw with Scotland or now Catalonia.

But who wants to belong to a club that must punish its members to prevent them from leaving? That is a question I am hear increasingly often now.
 
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Mr Person said:
If only someone had so informed Lincoln......
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Yes. The wounds are still evident. Ghettos are plentiful and statues must be removed. Is that your meaning? I have thought about that a lot. But I don’t think that the analogy works in periods and circumstances so unalike.
 
poweRob said:
I hope things don't get violent over there in Spain over this.

Catalan ex-President turns himself in to Belgian authorities

Catalan ex-President Carles Puigdemont and four other Catalan officials sought by Spanish authorities turned themselves in to Belgian police on Sunday, officials said.

A Spanish judge issued an international arrest warrant for Puigdemont on Friday, a day after eight members of the dissolved Catalan government were jailed in Spain.​
Click to expand...

Why should it get violent? Even Puigdemont has said to be peaceful.

Also the 8 members were jailed because of what Puigedemont did.. fled the country. The judge considered them a flight risk. Had he not fled, then chances are they would have been released on bail.
 
Tim the plumber said:
It seems that the rest of the world really does not get this democracy thing.

If part of your nation says it wants away then you have to let it go.

You can be slow and definate about it. Construct a process that requires 3 positive votes over 15 years and stuff but if you simply say NO! then you lose any democratic credibility.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge of Spanish history is not extensive, but didn't Catalonia sign on to the Spanish constitution? If so than they should first have amended that constitution so that they could succeed legally.
 
Jetboogieman said:
There's not going of be a civil war.
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True enough, but I feel the Federal Govt will come down hard on him and possibly others. Sedition and such, IIRC from an article up to 30 years in jail.
 
PeteEU said:
Why should it get violent? Even Puigdemont has said to be peaceful.

Also the 8 members were jailed because of what Puigedemont did.. fled the country. The judge considered them a flight risk. Had he not fled, then chances are they would have been released on bail.
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You mean Spanish courts pass judgement on one person based on the behavior of an other's? Yep. You speak as a real EUpean.
 
bearpoker said:
Correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge of Spanish history is not extensive, but didn't Catalonia sign on to the Spanish constitution? If so than they should first have amended that constitution so that they could succeed legally.
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Yes. It did. That does not mean the Constitution is very good. It also does not mean that it should be allowed to prevent the self determination of populations.
 
Tim the plumber said:
It seems that the rest of the world really does not get this democracy thing.

If part of your nation says it wants away then you have to let it go.

You can be slow and definate about it. Construct a process that requires 3 positive votes over 15 years and stuff but if you simply say NO! then you lose any democratic credibility.
Click to expand...

Uh...no one believes that, including the United States.
 
JANFU said:
True enough, but I feel the Federal Govt will come down hard on him and possibly others. Sedition and such, IIRC from an article up to 30 years in jail.
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Oh, you can be sure that political justice will be spoken. How harsh it will be will thus depend on the situation and political demands at the time of judgement. But you are right that it is important for Madrid and the EU that other EU citizens see that secessionist endeavor doesn't pay and is punished.
 
Tim the plumber said:
It seems that the rest of the world really does not get this democracy thing.

If part of your nation says it wants away then you have to let it go.

You can be slow and definate about it. Construct a process that requires 3 positive votes over 15 years and stuff but if you simply say NO! then you lose any democratic credibility.
Click to expand...

worked really well for the US, didn't it? we are still arguing about our little spat that happened in the 1860s. Our nation is still, to some degree, broken because of the larger issue.

good luck Spain; U gonna needs it ................
 
joG said:
Yes. The wounds are still evident. Ghettos are plentiful and statues must be removed. Is that your meaning? I have thought about that a lot. But I don’t think that the analogy works in periods and circumstances so unalike.
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a people that seek to be free from perceived restraints is not anomalous to any particular period of time, nor circumstance; the desire to be free is timeless
 
cuban smokes said:
a people that seek to be free from perceived restraints is not anomalous to any particular period of time, nor circumstance; the desire to be free is timeless
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Absolutely true. But circumstances and historical settings are strong determinants. What was understandable in the mid 19th century is past, can be studied and present behavior adapted to the consequences we see. Under today's circumstances in the Western Nations it seems rather unforgivable to be as ridged as we see happening in Spain and the EU.
 
bearpoker said:
Correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge of Spanish history is not extensive, but didn't Catalonia sign on to the Spanish constitution? If so than they should first have amended that constitution so that they could succeed legally.
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What a layer wrote some decades ago is not all that important.

Constitutions are not sacred.
 
Dittohead not! said:
How do you know? It has happened before.
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The memories of the last one along with Franco are still recent for a number of people. From the massacres, to those who had family members executed, tortured or died in prison as political enemies.
 
JANFU said:
The memories of the last one along with Franco are still recent for a number of people. From the massacres, to those who had family members executed, tortured or died in prison as political enemies.
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As long as they've learned from the past, then you're right: It won't come to civil war.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It has happened before.
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A very different time under very different circumstances.

A lot of the wounds and motivations for independence stem from the same places the civil war did and from scars of the civil war itself... But the conditions do not exist in Spain for the masses to take up arms against the Spanish state.

This is a purely political disagreement and there may be violence to a degree, riots and the like but I don't think people are ready to start shooting at the army.

Lifes not that bad in Catalonia, independent or not.
 
joG said:
You mean Spanish courts pass judgement on one person based on the behavior of an other's? Yep. You speak as a real EUpean.
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Happens in all cases in all countries, so grow up.
 
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