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3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large[W:84]

Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

truthatallcost said:
'Gun violence' would encompass a large variety of crimes, from firing at an occupied dwelling, to armed robbery, to homicide with a firearm. I'm not aware of any fact sheet that compiles all gun violence crimes by race, so I can't say any one race leads such a list.



The average yearly income of Mexico is about $4316 per year.

In China, the average yearly income of a private sector worker is $4755.

While China and Mexico's average yearly incomes are similar, we don't hear about any problem with gun crime occurring in China.

Why?
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Guns are illegal in China, other than for specific purposes - hunting, defence of certain properties such as banks, etc. They have a very strict gun control policy. Mexico's gun policy is strict on paper, but in some areas, over 50% of households have guns. And some guns are smuggled in, from the US, although there is dispute on the numbers, all the way from 18% to 95%. Regardless, that's a lot of guns.

Drugs are a scourge on society, and I would argue that drugs and guns don't mix well. I would even argue that alcohol and guns don't mix well. You can't drive under the influence, so a gun should be out of the question as well.

So getting back to poverty. I would add drugs/alcohol to the equation. However, drug lords, tend to prey on the poor.

I think in countries where guns are commonplace, that it's not race, but poverty, that drives most of the gun crime.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Chagos said:
Part of the figure that is down.

Beyond which I don't discern much, seeing how I consider most killings to be senseless, exceptions not detracting from the basic rule.
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It would be interesting to see stats that compare Homicide-Suicide.
People don't just commit suicide anymore - so many opt to take as many with them as possible. Yes, some of them stem from domestic violence/dispute, and usually the killing is confined to family members, but, going amuck and killing others - some, even strangers - seem to be on the rise.
A lot of people seems to be going "postal."


In a study specifically related to murder–suicide, Milton Rosenbaum (1990) discovered the murder–suicide perpetrators to be vastly different from perpetrators of homicide alone.
Whereas murderer–suicides were found to be highly depressed and overwhelmingly men, other murderers were not generally depressed and more likely to include women in their ranks.[2]
In the U.S. the overwhelming number of cases are male-on-female.[3] Around one-third of partner homicides end in the suicide of the perpetrator. From national and international data and interviews with family members of murder–suicide perpetrators, the following are the key predictors of murder–suicide: a history of substance abuse, the male partner some years older than the female partner, a break-up or pending break-up, a history of battering, and suicidal contemplation by the perpetrator.

Though there is no national tracking system for murder–suicides in the United States, medical studies into the phenomenon estimate between 1,000 and 1,500 deaths per year in the US,[4] with the majority occurring between spouses or intimate partners and the vast majority of the perpetrators being male. Depression, marital or/and financial problems, and other problems are generally motivators.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder–suicide


The ease by which a person can think and execute such a horrendous deed, is what makes it seem phenomenal at this current climate.
 
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Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

tosca1 said:
It would be interesting to see stats that compare Homicide-Suicide.
People don't just commit suicide anymore - so many opt to take as many with them as possible. Yes, some of them stem from domestic violence/dispute, and usually the killing is confined to family members, but, going amuck and killing others - some, even strangers - seem to be on the rise.
A lot of people seems to be going "postal."
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I can't seem to find any relevant (significant) figures by which one can compare numbers thruout history (comparing past and present) but admittedly didn't dig all that deep. "Going postal" is however a good indicator at least regarding the more immediate past of around 30 years ago. That being the time when the term arose on account of employees of the US Postal service seemingly having developed a greater than average propensity for sending a sizeable number of others ahead before topping themselves as well. Of course the perception thus arising was about as valid as that of the weather always being nice while we're at work and turning nasty the minute the weekend appears. IOW US postal employees weren't more prone to going on a rampage than were, on average, people from other fields of society.

The advance of technology notwithstanding (with a converted semi-auto like at LV you can take out far more than by bashing heads with a flower vase) clearly adds to the perception of unprecedented havoc, but that's a bit like air travel seeming to be highly dangerous on account of the number of casualties in a crash always being as high as it is. "Reason" only enters the picture when we compare the actual number to that of those dying in traffic or, by the imprudence of nicotine and alcohol abuse (let alone that of other substances), various forms of cancer and other related ailments.

And where the latter are down as much as plane crashes are, they don't get the media attention (and thus not ours) that the former invariably do.

Running "amuk" is of course an even older occurrence than the Malay word itself, as going "berserker" is older than the Vikings with which the phenomenon then became associated. Those and all preceding manifestations nevertheless being governed by the same death wish.

Even "assassin" comes from the Arabic "hashashin" sect whose members committed murder-suicide. That they did so on behalf of political gains of those that sent them takes nothing from the fact that they had (in our incomprehension causing us to lack a better word) more than just one screw loose.

The ease by which a person can think and execute such a horrendous deed, is what makes it seem phenomenal at this current climate.
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Indeed, yet with "seem" being the operative word.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Chagos said:
Indeed, yet with "seem" being the operative word.
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I can't seem to find any relevant (significant) figures by which one can compare numbers thruout history (comparing past and present) but admittedly didn't dig all that deep.
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Without any real data to support both our claims....."seems" should apply to both.
 
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Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Media_Truth said:
If I'm following the course of this argument correctly, it sounds like you're stating that most gun violence is perpetrated by blacks. This doesn't explain why Mexico has a lot of gun violence, as there aren't many blacks there. I would suggest, that it's more based on poverty.
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Are you trying to say that poor people are all outlaws?
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

truthatallcost said:
Well if I prove what I said to be correct, you're next move will be to call me 'racist', because people who can prove such things must be racist.

So there really is no point in continuing, when one side believes they can always dig themselves out of an insurmountable hole by using the magic R word.
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And now a preemptive victim card. Seems your debate closet is empty.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Media_Truth said:
Now your not comparing apples to apples because you're comparing event of over 70 years ago, to today. I guess we should also send the marines to Normandy.
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Not all seventy years ago buddy, but I get it; you like Japan's gun laws, and you don't want to hear anything about what actually happened or continues to happen in that country that would contradict your fantasy that Japan is an ocean of peace.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Media_Truth said:
Guns are illegal in China, other than for specific purposes - hunting, defence of certain properties such as banks, etc. They have a very strict gun control policy. Mexico's gun policy is strict on paper, but in some areas, over 50% of households have guns. And some guns are smuggled in, from the US, although there is dispute on the numbers, all the way from 18% to 95%. Regardless, that's a lot of guns.

Drugs are a scourge on society, and I would argue that drugs and guns don't mix well. I would even argue that alcohol and guns don't mix well. You can't drive under the influence, so a gun should be out of the question as well.

So getting back to poverty. I would add drugs/alcohol to the equation. However, drug lords, tend to prey on the poor.

I think in countries where guns are commonplace, that it's not race, but poverty, that drives most of the gun crime.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't even argue that race is the most important contributing factor, rather, culture is what plays the most important part in gun violence.

I used China as an example of a country where the bulk of its citizens are poor, yet gun violence isn't a significant part of life there. I believe the culture of China is different from Mexico, and that's what prevents people from turning so readily to gun violence.

Also, population density has been used as a scapegoat by some, in combination with poverty to try to find some blame for high levels of gun violence in American cities. Yet China's population density is higher in many areas than in Baltimore or St Louis, and there's still not much gun crime in those areas.

Lastly, guns are illegal for most people to own in China and Mexico. But China actually produces millions of guns for sale. Everything from knock off AK-47s to handguns are manufactured by Chinese factories. As you've stated, Mexicans have to purchase many of their guns from other countries such as the US. Yet the Chinese have ample access to guns if they want them, and still, their doesn't seem to be much of a gun violence epidemic there.

China is poorer than the United States, with higher population density and access to guns. Yet they aren't killing each other like we are over here, or in Mexico. Why? Culture.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

truthatallcost said:
~........................ Yet the Chinese have ample access to guns if they want them, and still, their doesn't seem to be much of a gun violence epidemic there.

China is poorer than the United States, with higher population density and access to guns. Yet they aren't killing each other like we are over here, or in Mexico. Why? Culture.
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Oh ferchrissake, it's already been pointed out to you repeatedly that China has highly restrictive laws on gun ownership. Owning an illegal weapon will get you at least 3 years in jail and can, depending on circumstance, lead to the death penalty. In comparison to Mexico, China enforces its laws most rigorously and that its fair size small arms industry makes for greater availability to the average citizen is simply a daft statement. There simply is no domestic black market, seeing how like in all totalitarian states the leaders won't have it.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

TurtleDude said:
because China is ruthlessly efficient in suppressing crime and news about crime while mexico is close to being anarchy in many areas. People who engage in violent crime in Mexico often run major urban areas-in China, they get a bullet in the back of their head and their family gets charged for the cost of a bullet
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True, and good points. Criminal Justice in those 2 countries probably has a lot to do with cultural attitudes as well, and would be a part of the general culture of the Chinese. Traffic laws there are virtually unenforced in China, but drug possession, even just for personal use, can result in very strict penalties. These things are decided by what a society places value on.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

truthatallcost said:
True, and good points. Criminal Justice in those 2 countries probably has a lot to do with cultural attitudes as well, and would be a part of the general culture of the Chinese. Traffic laws there are virtually unenforced in China, but drug possession, even just for personal use, can result in very strict penalties. These things are decided by what a society places value on.
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In China it isn't so much about what society places value on, it's about what a totalitarian regime imposes upon society.

If you want an example of what society places value upon when it comes to gun ownership, take the UK or Germany.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

truthatallcost said:
I wouldn't even argue that race is the most important contributing factor, rather, culture is what plays the most important part in gun violence.

I used China as an example of a country where the bulk of its citizens are poor, yet gun violence isn't a significant part of life there. I believe the culture of China is different from Mexico, and that's what prevents people from turning so readily to gun violence.

Also, population density has been used as a scapegoat by some, in combination with poverty to try to find some blame for high levels of gun violence in American cities. Yet China's population density is higher in many areas than in Baltimore or St Louis, and there's still not much gun crime in those areas.

Lastly, guns are illegal for most people to own in China and Mexico. But China actually produces millions of guns for sale. Everything from knock off AK-47s to handguns are manufactured by Chinese factories. As you've stated, Mexicans have to purchase many of their guns from other countries such as the US. Yet the Chinese have ample access to guns if they want them, and still, their doesn't seem to be much of a gun violence epidemic there.

China is poorer than the United States, with higher population density and access to guns. Yet they aren't killing each other like we are over here, or in Mexico. Why? Culture.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your assessments, but I don't think the Chinese consider a manufacturing plant, a source for guns. They have very strict penalties for an illegal firearm.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Media_Truth said:
I agree with most of your assessments, but I don't think the Chinese consider a manufacturing plant, a source for guns. They have very strict penalties for an illegal firearm.
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most totalitarian states do. only free societies have large numbers of armed citizens.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Tigerace117 said:
Not all seventy years ago buddy, but I get it; you like Japan's gun laws, and you don't want to hear anything about what actually happened or continues to happen in that country that would contradict your fantasy that Japan is an ocean of peace.
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I don't argue that point. They have a violent history - the Samurai, etc. However, this violence is not manifested with gun violence. Here is a good article on Japan.

https://mic.com/articles/126573/jap...d-how-to-eliminate-shooting-deaths#.fyx7ulT2N

There's a vast array of historical, cultural and political reasons that have landed Japan on the opposite side of the iconic gun chart as the U.S., but it's in no small part because the country holds a very clear view of guns: Guns are a threat to public safety, and gun possession is something to be earned rather than something one is entitled to.
 
Re: 3 dead after random shooting at Colorado Walmart, suspect still at-large

Media_Truth said:
I agree with most of your assessments, but I don't think the Chinese consider a manufacturing plant, a source for guns. They have very strict penalties for an illegal firearm.
Click to expand...

Being tough on crime reduces gun violence? Mazel Tov, I think we've struck an agreement.
 
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