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Mueller team won battle to force testimony from lawyer for Manafort and Gates

Cardinal

Cardinal

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The terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day for Trump gets a little worse:

Prosecutors convinced a federal judge to require a lawyer for Trump campaign officials Paul Manafort and Rick Gates to testify before the grand jury investigating Russian involvement in the 2016 election, a court ruling unsealed on Monday showed.

The unusual move is an indication of the aggressiveness of special counsel Robert Mueller's prosecution team as they prepared to indict Manafort and Gates on charges of money laundering and failing to register as foreign agents. The 12-count indictment was made public on Monday.

Lawyers for Manafort and Gates fought the prosecution's drive to intrude on attorney-client communications. But Chief Judge Beryl Howell of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled that an exception, which involves using a lawyer to commit crime or fraud, applied to contacts with an attorney who helped respond to inquiries about why the pair had not filed foreign-agent lobbying registrations with the Justice Department.
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https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/mueller-manafort-gates-testimony-244339

Something I've learned from ongoing commentaries by ex-Federal prosecutors is that white-collar criminals are notoriously difficult to prosecute for the simple fact that they don't believe they're "real" criminals, therefore extracting confessions or, as in this case, flipping them, can prove challenging. It's clear, however, that Mueller is looking to apply as much pressure as humanly possible. Combined with the story that Papadopoulos was informed by a Russian national (thought to be Joseph Mifsud of the University of Stirling in Scotland) that Moscow "had 'dirt' on Hillary Clinton in the form of 'thousands of emails'” before his inclusion in the infamous "security meeting," and the fact that Trump appears to have forsaken Manafort and Gates after calling them "bad guys," it doesn't seem likely that Manafort will remain unflipped for very long.

The contrasting treatment of Manafort and Papadopoulos seems to be engineered to send a message to everybody else in Mueller's sights: cooperate and your treatment will be lenient. Don't cooperate and every Federal crime in the book will land on your head.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/george-papadopoulos-russia.html
Mystery Professor in Mueller Case Had Contacts With Russian Officials – Mother Jones
 
Cardinal said:
The terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day for Trump gets a little worse:




https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/mueller-manafort-gates-testimony-244339

Something I've learned from ongoing commentaries by ex-Federal prosecutors is that white-collar criminals are notoriously difficult to prosecute for the simple fact that they don't believe they're "real" criminals, therefore extracting confessions or, as in this case, flipping them, can prove challenging. It's clear, however, that Mueller is looking to apply as much pressure as humanly possible. Combined with the story that Papadopoulos was informed by a Russian national (thought to be Joseph Mifsud of the University of Stirling in Scotland) that Moscow "had 'dirt' on Hillary Clinton in the form of 'thousands of emails'” before his inclusion in the infamous "security meeting," and the fact that Trump appears to have forsaken Manafort and Gates after calling them "bad guys," it doesn't seem likely that Manafort will remain unflipped for very long.

The contrasting treatment of Manafort and Papadopoulos seems to be engineered to send a message to everybody else in Mueller's sights: cooperate and your treatment will be lenient. Don't cooperate and every Federal crime in the book will land on your head.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/george-papadopoulos-russia.html
Mystery Professor in Mueller Case Had Contacts With Russian Officials – Mother Jones
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Oh dear. This is going to be just terrible news for the Clintons and probably some relative of Podesta somehow.
 
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Trump has loooooooooooooooong been suspected himself (by very good evidence) of money laundering & supporting money laundering activities

I for one cannot wait until the point in time comes that Trump & his complete entourage of criminal jackasses comes completely crashing down over the electorate & the nation

it will be a glorious day when this bastard eats **** and fades into the prison cell of history ..............
 
We'll have to see how this all plays out, what I suggest is zen like patience while this all gets sorted and folks of both sides flail around like people on fire.

I have not been of the belief that Trump did directly collude with Russia.

But those who would completely dismiss it, in the light of Don Jr's emails and some of the things we've heard today, coupled with how overtly dishonest Trump is at all times and with the greatest frequency of any major politician, maybe in American history, is pretty foolish.

Whether he directly did or not is still up for debate despite all we've seen... But his lack of impulse control and sheer ineptitude should give you pause as to whether it really is as far fetched as his band of merry men will have you believe.
 
Jetboogieman said:
We'll have to see how this all plays out, what I suggest is zen like patience while this all gets sorted and folks of both sides flail around like people on fire.

I have not been of the belief that Trump did directly collude with Russia.

But those who would completely dismiss it, in the light of Don Jr's emails and some of the things we've heard today, coupled with how overtly dishonest Trump is at all times and with the greatest frequency of any major politician, maybe in American history, is pretty foolish.

Whether he directly did or not is still up for debate despite all we've seen... But his lack of impulse control and sheer ineptitude should give you pause as to whether it really is as far fetched as his band of merry men will have you believe.
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For me, one theory that remains in play is that collusion is still a non-starter, and Trump sees this as simply a precursor for looking into (and possibly exposing) his finances. In the past, Trump has seemed at oddly at peace with the collusion issue, appearing more irritated than anything by how the optics reflects on his legitimacy. It's the financial angle which has consistently driven him banana-pants.
 
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Cardinal said:
For me, one theory that's still in play is that collusion is still a non-starter, and Trump sees this as simply a precursor for looking into (and possibly exposing) his finances. In the past, Trump has seemed at oddly at peace with the collusion issue, appearing more irritated than anything by how the optics reflects on his legitimacy. It's the financial angle which has consistently driven him banana-pants.
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Well there is that, the skeletons in that guys financial closet could very well be on the brink of producing fossil fuels.
 
poweRob said:
Oh dear. This is going to be just terrible news for the Clintons and probably some relative of Podesta somehow.
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But, you are not focusing on BENGHAZI!
 
Cardinal said:
For me, one theory that remains in play is that collusion is still a non-starter, and Trump sees this as simply a precursor for looking into (and possibly exposing) his finances. In the past, Trump has seemed at oddly at peace with the collusion issue, appearing more irritated than anything by how the optics reflects on his legitimacy. It's the financial angle which has consistently driven him banana-pants.
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Well, when he says he, "wants to be friends with Russia." He's basically admitting that he was making deals with them.
 
Cardinal said:
The terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day for Trump gets a little worse:




https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/mueller-manafort-gates-testimony-244339

Something I've learned from ongoing commentaries by ex-Federal prosecutors is that white-collar criminals are notoriously difficult to prosecute for the simple fact that they don't believe they're "real" criminals, therefore extracting confessions or, as in this case, flipping them, can prove challenging. It's clear, however, that Mueller is looking to apply as much pressure as humanly possible. Combined with the story that Papadopoulos was informed by a Russian national (thought to be Joseph Mifsud of the University of Stirling in Scotland) that Moscow "had 'dirt' on Hillary Clinton in the form of 'thousands of emails'” before his inclusion in the infamous "security meeting," and the fact that Trump appears to have forsaken Manafort and Gates after calling them "bad guys," it doesn't seem likely that Manafort will remain unflipped for very long.

The contrasting treatment of Manafort and Papadopoulos seems to be engineered to send a message to everybody else in Mueller's sights: cooperate and your treatment will be lenient. Don't cooperate and every Federal crime in the book will land on your head.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/george-papadopoulos-russia.html
Mystery Professor in Mueller Case Had Contacts With Russian Officials – Mother Jones
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This isn't a surprise. In the indictment it was disclosed that Manafort gave false statements to his attorney and his accountant. If either of those knew of the illegal acts or advised him regarding how to commit the illegal acts then they are as culpable as he is.
 
Uh, someone help me here if you will:

"How does one force a break in attorney-client privilege?"

There must be something of which I'm unaware.
 
Chomsky said:
Uh, someone help me here if you will:

"How does one force a break in attorney-client privilege?"

There must be something of which I'm unaware.
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As with the first amendment, there appear to be exceptions. In this case, using your lawyer to commit a crime or fraud is a situation that can render your attorney-client privilege null and void.

So let that be a lesson to everybody who thinks having a lawyer is like using the "God Mode" cheat.
 
Chomsky said:
Uh, someone help me here if you will:

"How does one force a break in attorney-client privilege?"

There must be something of which I'm unaware.
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Typically, ACP can be voided if the attorney is found to be a participant in criminal acts.
 
Here we go:

When the privilege may not apply

Disclosure in case of a crime, tort, or fraud

The crime-fraud exception can render the privilege moot when communications between an attorney and client are themselves used to further a crime, tort, or fraud. In Clark v. United States, the US Supreme Court stated that "A client who consults an attorney for advice that will serve him in the commission of a fraud will have no help from the law. He must let the truth be told."[8] The crime-fraud exception also does require that the crime or fraud discussed between client and attorney be carried out to be triggered.[9] US Courts have not yet conclusively ruled how little knowledge an attorney can have of the underlying crime or fraud before the privilege detaches and the attorney's communications or requisite testimony become admissible.[10]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney–client_privilege#When_the_privilege_may_not_apply
 
Jetboogieman said:
Well there is that, the skeletons in that guys financial closet could very well be on the brink of producing fossil fuels.
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Indeed. Trump has been involved with and partnered with organized crime members (US and foreign) for a long time. That is no secret. Much of the information is available from multiple sources online.

When Trump had finally high rolled himself into his 5th or 6th bankruptcy (I forget which) no American institution would loan him money. No European financial institution would loan him money. At that point also, Trump had earned his reputation for not honoring his debts. And then like magic Trump was wallowing in money once again!

Where exactly did it come from - and why? Probably from Russian thugs and oligarchs and those from former Soviet countries. We have seen statements alluding to that even from the second smartest guy in the world, Don Jr.

How much? From who exactly? Why would Russians and friends throw buckets of money at Trump when no one else would?

Real estate apparently has been a good way to launder money. Fingers point in that direction with Trump. I'm guessing Mueller and Company have been chasing that hard.
 
Cardinal said:
As with the first amendment, there appear to be exceptions. In this case, using your lawyer to commit a crime or fraud is a situation that can render your attorney-client privilege null and void.

So let that be a lesson to everybody who thinks having a lawyer is like using the "God Mode" cheat.
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Thanks, and fair enough.

Though it would seem the feds have to convince a judge the lawyers conspired to commit a crime. With these well experienced lawyers, it seems a reach they would now turn dirty. This stinks a little, I think.

But on a side note, I was always told it's better to use a lawyer-accountant for accounting, than a regular accountant. Because if the IRS inquires, an accountant must turn over all your stuff and they will do it willingly even without notice to you. However a lawyer-accountant doesn't, and will act in your best interest. You can also speak more freely to your lawyer accountant.
 
Chomsky said:
Thanks, and fair enough.

Though it would seem the feds have to convince a judge the lawyers conspired to commit a crime. With these well experienced lawyers, it seems a reach they would now turn dirty. This stinks a little, I think.

But on a side note, I was always told it's better to use a lawyer-accountant for accounting, than a regular accountant. Because if the IRS inquires, an accountant must turn over all your stuff and they will do it willingly even without notice to you. However a lawyer-accountant doesn't, and will act in your best interest. You can also speak more freely to your lawyer accountant.
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You should check out the Preet Bharara podcast today. The brunt of prosecution means being able to prove mens rea, and I think the entire cast surrounding Trump is made up of such unadulterated criminals that proving guilt of mind just really isn't proving to be all that difficult.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Indeed. Trump has been involved with and partnered with organized crime members (US and foreign) for a long time. That is no secret. Much of the information is available from multiple sources online.

When Trump had finally high rolled himself into his 5th or 6th bankruptcy (I forget which) no American institution would loan him money. No European financial institution would loan him money. At that point also, Trump had earned his reputation for not honoring his debts. And then like magic Trump was wallowing in money once again!

Where exactly did it come from - and why? Probably from Russian thugs and oligarchs and those from former Soviet countries. We have seen statements alluding to that even from the second smartest guy in the world, Don Jr.

How much? From who exactly? Why would Russians and friends throw buckets of money at Trump when no one else would?

Real estate apparently has been a good way to launder money. Fingers point in that direction with Trump. I'm guessing Mueller and Company have been chasing that hard.
Click to expand...
FYI -

Earlier this year a guy who writes golf books made a claim of playing golf with one of Trump's sons at the height of the recent real estate & economic crash. When the son was bragging about building a new golf course, the writer inquired as to how the Trump's could do this when no one was lending. Trump's kid replied that they had access to over a $100M from wealthy Russian investors, and there was more if they wanted.

You might be able to Google this for more info, and I make no claims as to it's accuracy. I seem to recall the writer came forward maybe in March or May. Cable news and some internet sources carried it. I saw it referred to on CNN, I believe.
 
Cardinal said:
You should check out the Preet Bharara podcast today. The brunt of prosecution means being able to prove mens rea, and I think the entire cast surrounding Trump is made up of such unadulterated criminals that proving guilt of mind just really isn't proving to be all that difficult.
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Hah!

But can you prove mens rea of the mentally insane?

Trump may skip off into the sunset ... :2razz:
 
Chomsky said:
Hah!

But can you prove mens rea of the mentally insane?

Trump may skip off into the sunset ... :2razz:
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Don't laugh. There's a theory that Trump may be aware of his lying and believe his lies simultaneously.
 
Cardinal said:
Don't laugh. There's a theory that Trump may be aware of his lying and believe his lies simultaneously.
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Yeah, well take a look at my post #24 and tell me if Page is playing with a full deck?
 
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