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Catalonia’s Parliament Votes to Declare Independence From Spain

JANFU

JANFU

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/...eakingNews&contentID=66007295&pgtype=Homepage

BARCELONA, Spain — In a major escalation of Spain’s territorial conflict, Catalan lawmakers declared independence on Friday, setting up a showdown with the central government in coming days.

Undeterred by the government’s threat to seize control of Catalonia, separatists in the region’s Parliament passed a resolution to “create a Catalan republic as an independent state.” In protest, lawmakers opposed to independence walked out of the chamber before the vote.
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What will the response be from the Spanish Govt?
I really do not know
Thoughts are?
 
My guess and it's just a guess but it will probably be the same as their response
to Catalan trying to have a public vote for their independence.

Some type of Force to stop them!
 
JANFU said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/...eakingNews&contentID=66007295&pgtype=Homepage


What will the response be from the Spanish Govt?
I really do not know
Thoughts are?
Click to expand...

The Spanish Government will exercise its authority under Spain's Constitution. It will take direct control of Catalonia for the time being.

The Catalan Parliament's move is not a constructive development. It is unlikely that the Catalan region will be successful in its bid for independence. A significant share of its population does not support the drive for independence (though a small majority might), the Spanish Constitution prohibits it, and the European Union won't recognize it.

On account of what happened, especially if violence results from Spain's efforts to assume direct control, it is unlikely that Madrid will simply restore the status quo ante. In other words, going forward, the Catalan region will likely have less autonomy than it possessed prior to its move for independence.
 
The Spanish government gets its marching orders from Germany, no different than any government under the EU. After Brexit, and all the other countries now talking about, and looking for a way out from under German rule, my guess is you will see people die for their disobedience. Germany is becoming desperate to hold on to power, and they are reverting back to "old school Germany" tactics to keep that power.
 
For those who are interested, the Spanish Constitution can be found at: http://www.parliament.am/library/sahmanadrutyunner/ispania.pdf

Section 155 (p.47 of the .PDF) is relevant to the Spanish Government's authority to take control of the Catalan Region. The Spanish Senate gave the required approval under that Section a short time ago.
 
All Spain will do is throw gas on the separatist fire. If they let a referendum happen this problem would not exist, but now most Catalans will probably never trust nor support the Spanish government ever again.
 
NoParty said:
The Spanish government gets its marching orders from Germany, no different than any government under the EU. After Brexit, and all the other countries now talking about, and looking for a way out from under German rule, my guess is you will see people die for their disobedience. Germany is becoming desperate to hold on to power, and they are reverting back to "old school Germany" tactics to keep that power.
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I disagree. This matter concerns Spanish territorial integrity. Spain's response is not being driven by Germany, even as a unified Spain is in Germany's and Europe's interests. The Catalonia issue predates the 1992 Maastricht Treaty that established the European Union.
 
NoParty said:
The Spanish government gets its marching orders from Germany, no different than any government under the EU. After Brexit, and all the other countries now talking about, and looking for a way out from under German rule, my guess is you will see people die for their disobedience. Germany is becoming desperate to hold on to power, and they are reverting back to "old school Germany" tactics to keep that power.
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This has literally nothing to do with Germany, it is 100% Spain ****ing things up. A new Catalonian state would most likely seek membership in the EU and Catalan's independence has nothing to do with the EU issues.
 
If Spain suppresses this then the Catalonians might just turn to terrorism (I hope not).
 
Carjosse said:
This has literally nothing to do with Germany, it is 100% Spain ****ing things up. A new Catalonian state would most likely seek membership in the EU and Catalan's independence has nothing to do with the EU issues.
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Of course it does, this is just another Brexit, Italexit, Greexit, etc....Yes, all you will hear, and all the news will talk about is the constitution, legality, economics, blah, blah, blah. If you want to know what the people of Spain and Catalonia think about on a day to day basis, google "Spain/Catalonia terrorism". They too, are tired of being slaughtered in the name of political correctness.
 
NoParty said:
Of course it does, this is just another Brexit, Italexit, Greexit, etc....Yes, all you will hear, and all the news will talk about is the constitution, legality, economics, blah, blah, blah. If you want to know what the people of Spain and Catalonia think about on a day to day basis, google "Spain/Catalonia terrorism". They too, are tired of being slaughtered in the name of political correctness.
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You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
 
PoS said:
If Spain suppresses this then the Catalonians might just turn to terrorism (I hope not).
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There's nothing to supress.
 
NoParty said:
Of course it does, this is just another Brexit, Italexit, Greexit, etc....Yes, all you will hear, and all the news will talk about is the constitution, legality, economics, blah, blah, blah. If you want to know what the people of Spain and Catalonia think about on a day to day basis, google "Spain/Catalonia terrorism". They too, are tired of being slaughtered in the name of political correctness.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with the EU, Catalonians are largely pro-EU and the separatist movement predates the EU.
 
Aristaeus said:
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
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I know, it's such a silly notion that people will not stand for being told they have to die in the name of PC. I bet you think the Brits had no idea of what they were talking about (before their vote) either, right?
 
NoParty said:
I know, it's such a silly notion that people will not stand for being told they have to die in the name of PC. I bet you think the Brits had no idea of what they were talking about (before their vote) either, right?
Click to expand...

The Catalan sovereignty movement is not connected to the EU or the issue of "political correctness." For some historic insight, below is some information from the Library of Congress’ Country Study on Spain:

During the latter half of the nineteenth century, Catalonia exper-
ienced a dramatic resurgence as the focal point of Spain's indus-
trial revolution (see The Cuban Disaster and the "Generation of
1898," ch. 1). There were also a cultural renaissance and a renewed
emphasis on the Catalan language as the key to Catalan cultural
distinctiveness. Catalan nationalism was put forward by the nascent
Catalan bourgeoisie as a solution that coupled political and cultural
autonomy with economic integration in the Spanish market. For
a brief period during the 1930s, the freedom of the Second Republic
gave the Catalans a taste of political autonomy, but the door was
shut for forty years by the Franco dictatorship…

Also:

From the vantage point of the state, the Basque, the Catalan,
and the Galician peoples were "nationalities" within the larger and
more inclusive Spanish nation. There was only one nation, and
its capital was Madrid; ethnic minorities were prohibited from using
the term "nation" in reference to themselves. For the Basque or
the Catalan nationalist, however, there was no Spanish nation, only
a Spanish state made up of a number of ethnic nations, of which
theirs was one.

It should be noted that ethno-nationalist sentiment varied greatly
within and among Spain's important ethnic minorities, through-
out the years. In other words, not all Basques or Catalans felt them-
selves to be solely Basque or Catalan, and even those who did
possessed varying levels of identification with, and commitment
to, their ethnic homeland, depending upon the circumstances of
the moment. For example, a 1979 study by Goldie Shabad and
Richard Gunther revealed that, in the Basque provinces of Alava,
Guipuzcoa, and Vizcaya, 28 percent of their respondents identi-
fied themselves as "Spanish only" or "more Spanish than Basque,"
24 percent said they were "equally Spanish and Basque," 11 per-
cent said they were "more Basque than Spanish," and 37 percent
identified themselves as "solely Basque." In the Basque province
of Navarre, in contrast, 26 percent said they were "Spanish only";
52 percent, "Navarrese only"; and 15 percent, "Basque only."
In Catalonia, the figures were as follows: "Spanish or more Span-
ish than Catalan," 38 percent; "equally Catalan and Spanish,"
36 percent; "more Catalan than Spanish," 12 percent; and "Cata-
lan only," 15 percent.

The Country Study can be found here: https://www.loc.gov/item/90006127/
 
Aristaeus said:
There's nothing to supress.
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Of course there is. If Spain imposes direct rule and arrests the leaders of Catalonia then it gets serious.
 
donsutherland1 said:
The Catalan sovereignty movement is not connected to the EU or the issue of "political correctness." For some historic insight, below is some information from the Library of Congress’ Country Study on Spain:

During the latter half of the nineteenth century, Catalonia exper-
ienced a dramatic resurgence as the focal point of Spain's indus-
trial revolution (see The Cuban Disaster and the "Generation of
1898," ch. 1). There were also a cultural renaissance and a renewed
emphasis on the Catalan language as the key to Catalan cultural
distinctiveness. Catalan nationalism was put forward by the nascent
Catalan bourgeoisie as a solution that coupled political and cultural
autonomy with economic integration in the Spanish market. For
a brief period during the 1930s, the freedom of the Second Republic
gave the Catalans a taste of political autonomy, but the door was
shut for forty years by the Franco dictatorship…

Also:

From the vantage point of the state, the Basque, the Catalan,
and the Galician peoples were "nationalities" within the larger and
more inclusive Spanish nation. There was only one nation, and
its capital was Madrid; ethnic minorities were prohibited from using
the term "nation" in reference to themselves. For the Basque or
the Catalan nationalist, however, there was no Spanish nation, only
a Spanish state made up of a number of ethnic nations, of which
theirs was one.

It should be noted that ethno-nationalist sentiment varied greatly
within and among Spain's important ethnic minorities, through-
out the years. In other words, not all Basques or Catalans felt them-
selves to be solely Basque or Catalan, and even those who did
possessed varying levels of identification with, and commitment
to, their ethnic homeland, depending upon the circumstances of
the moment. For example, a 1979 study by Goldie Shabad and
Richard Gunther revealed that, in the Basque provinces of Alava,
Guipuzcoa, and Vizcaya, 28 percent of their respondents identi-
fied themselves as "Spanish only" or "more Spanish than Basque,"
24 percent said they were "equally Spanish and Basque," 11 per-
cent said they were "more Basque than Spanish," and 37 percent
identified themselves as "solely Basque." In the Basque province
of Navarre, in contrast, 26 percent said they were "Spanish only";
52 percent, "Navarrese only"; and 15 percent, "Basque only."
In Catalonia, the figures were as follows: "Spanish or more Span-
ish than Catalan," 38 percent; "equally Catalan and Spanish,"
36 percent; "more Catalan than Spanish," 12 percent; and "Cata-
lan only," 15 percent.

The Country Study can be found here: https://www.loc.gov/item/90006127/
Click to expand...

I would suggest rather than copy/paste studies, you actually go to Spain/Catalonia and talk to the citizens, as I did after the deadly bombings in Catalonia in August just months ago. I can promise you I never heard one mention of "The Country Study" or anything contained within, but what I did hear from everyone that I talked to, is that they are tired of their friends, family, and fellow countrymen being blown up and slaughtered and being forced to take the killers in. As said before, this no different than Britain, Italy, Greece, and all the others searching for a way to end the killing. Did you have a "study" for Brexit as well? I didn't see that in your post.
 
NoParty said:
I know, it's such a silly notion that people will not stand for being told they have to die in the name of PC. I bet you think the Brits had no idea of what they were talking about (before their vote) either, right?
Click to expand...

What on earth are you talking about?? Dying in the name of PC? Germany??
 
NoParty said:
I would suggest rather than copy/paste studies, you actually go to Spain/Catalonia and talk to the citizens, as I did after the deadly bombings in Catalonia in August just months ago. I can promise you I never heard one mention of "The Country Study" or anything contained within, but what I did hear from everyone that I talked to, is that they are tired of their friends, family, and fellow countrymen being blown up and slaughtered and being forced to take the killers in. As said before, this no different than Britain, Italy, Greece, and all the others searching for a way to end the killing. Did you have a "study" for Brexit as well? I didn't see that in your post.
Click to expand...

It's completely different. The Catalan separatists are not looking to leave the EU. They want Catalonia to be a sovereign nation in the EU.
 
NoParty said:
I would suggest rather than copy/paste studies, you actually go to Spain/Catalonia and talk to the citizens, as I did after the deadly bombings in Catalonia in August just months ago. I can promise you I never heard one mention of "The Country Study" or anything contained within, but what I did hear from everyone that I talked to, is that they are tired of their friends, family, and fellow countrymen being blown up and slaughtered and being forced to take the killers in. As said before, this no different than Britain, Italy, Greece, and all the others searching for a way to end the killing. Did you have a "study" for Brexit as well? I didn't see that in your post.
Click to expand...

Three points

1. The study was excerpted to provide historic context. The Catalan separatist movement is not a new thing and it has nothing to do with a desire to exit the European Union. In fact, following the referendum, Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont, appealed to the European Union to help mediate between the Catalan region and the Spanish central government. The separatist movement's root cause has no connection to "Brexit." It also has nothing to do with "political correctness."

2. The share of the Catalan region's population that seeks independence from Spain is not fully certain. For example, turnout in the unsanctioned referendum was just 43%. Further, in today's vote by the regional Catalan Parliament, 55 lawmakers (more than 40% of the body) walked out rather than vote.

3. Even the personal anecdotes you cite, which may or may not be representative of the larger Catalan region population, do not illustrate a desire among the population to exit the European Union or any connection with "political correctness."

In sum, there remains no credible evidence to support the hypothesis that the Catalan separatist movement is linked to a desire to exit the European Union or has anything to do with "political correctness."
 
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