Colin Kaepernick files lawsuit against the NFL accusing owners of colluding against him

justabubba said:

actually, it is NOT as simple as that
CK is a member of the NFL players union
as a member, he is covered by the CBA negotiated and signed by the owners and players (representatives)
that CBA establishes that the owners cannot collude to bar a player from playing in the NFL
CK obviously believes there has been collusion, likely because there are many QBs in the league who statistically cannot hold his jock strap
so, under the CBA provisions, CK and his representatives now have the oppostunity to see for themselves if there are any indicators of collusion
and it is notable that if any evidence of collusion is found, the CBA, in its current form, evaporates. the owners and players union will have to start from scratch to create a new labor-management contract. i doubt the owners want that result to occur
so, if there is evidence of the collusion to be found, the owners are making an expensive bet they can keep that evidence away from CK and the NFLPA


and if there is no collusion to be found, this is as good an explanation why CK has not been hired as any

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Ok, so they are questioned about colluding and they all say no, and provide the example I outlined...What then....Does CK then take a knee on the street corner?

Bucky said:

RG3 was given a second chance with the Browns. Vince Young, Tim Tebow, EJ Manuel even Ryan Leaf. All of these Qb's were given at least a second contract with another team. How does CK not deserve a second chance from a football perspective?

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No one "deserves" anything in terms of the NFL. Furthermore, I could flip that on you. Vince Young didn't get a second contract with his team; neither did Tim Tebow, neither did EJ Manuel, neither did Ryan Leaf, neither did RG3.

Kaepernick did. Kaepernicks "second chance" was with the team that signed a 6 year contract extension with his original team.

Also, it's funny you put EJ Manuel on that list next to someone like Vince Young and Ryan Leaf. Because what EJ shows is the difference in how the NFL looks at QB's now, where you're drafted, it's looked to see if you can do the job, and once it becomes obvious you're not going to be "The guy" they'll move on very quick.

PURELY from a football playing stat stand point, is Kaep good enough to be a reasonable backup in this league? Sure. However, it's not a purely stat thing with him, just like it's not a purely stat thing with RG3, and it wasn't just a purely stat thing with Tebow. It's also why the likes of Griffin is released to go with someone like Kevin Hogan instead.

There's a certain mold of the TYPE of QB you tend to want as your backup; typically game manager types that you want to have as a steward. If you have a young main QB, you don't want someone who's going to potentially outshine them in the short time, making their long term development problematic. You don't want someone who's going to generate a lot of controversy and distractions for your team when they're going to be spending most of your time sitting on the bench. That's just a handful of the non "stat' things that play into it.

Even from a "football perspective", there's reasons to potentially pass on Kaepernick beyond "collusion"; however, the reality is football IS a business and BUSINESS decisions are legitimate as well and not necessarily "collusion".

justabubba said:

but that there are QBs being hired who are often viewed as lesser than what CK offers allows one to see the possibility that CK is being denied an opportunity to play for some reason other than his diminished QB skills

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But see that's the thing...what you just described doesn't mean collusion.

Collusion is not defined as "not hired for reasons other than ones skills as a QB".

That's not what collusion is. Collusion is an organized scheme or agreement on the part of ownership to not hire Kaepernick. 32 owners, individually, coming to the conclusion that CK does not provide a reasonably positive cost/benefit hire based on his recent play on the field, their belief of how he'd fit in the lockerroom, whether he fits the mold of what they want in a backup QB, if they feel he's worth the size contract he may want, the impact it may have on ticket sales and general fanbase attitudes towards the team, the potential negative media attention and/or the potential disruption and distraction it could cause players on the team. Or you know, there are undoubtedly teams that just believe that their backup QB's they have, who have been in their system, are a better option (take for example the Redskins with Colt McCoy).

None of those factors are "wrong" or "illegal", none of them are instances suggesting inherently collusion, and what they do is present a multitude of different reasons all the various teams could independently come to the decision to not hire Kaepernick for reasons all their own.

Collusion! Obviously Putin is behind Kapaernick's unemployment! :mrgreen:

Kreton said:

I like Kap, and I think his kneeling is a good thing so this isn't political. Anyhow, a bad team signing Kap is still a bad team. He might be good enough to keep an already good team competitive, but he isn't making a bad team good. And if he isn't making a bad team good, what is the point? Might as well developer your cheap or young guys and hope to find a diamond.

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He is better than a lot of back ups out there......Also....Agreed a bad team it won't matter but the teams that .500 or so and their starter goes down would be better off with him than playing some untested Rookie

Kreton said:

It has brought attention to a good issue that should be having more conversations around it. To your other point, I don't care if the NFL looses any money. I really don't. I think those owners will be ok. I am far more concerned with issues that actually matter like racial injustices.

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Its only brought attention to the large scale rejection of the social justice agenda.

You realize Kapernick was awarded with a record 126 million dollar contract when he played with thKapernick

He was payed 40 million from that contract before he flaked out

So its impossible for the average American who does not want someone elses social justice agenda force fed to them to relate to these athletes let alone feel sorry for Kapernick

I say hire him at the minimum allowed and make him a bench warmer. Might be cheaper than fighting in court. As long as someone offers him a job, bye bye lawsuit.

j-mac said:

Ok, so they are questioned about colluding and they all say no, and provide the example I outlined...What then....Does CK then take a knee on the street corner?

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saying 'no' may not be enough
it depends on the evidence the CK side is able to offer to the arbitrator who hears this case
if CK's people can show the arbitrator ample evidence of collusion, CK wins
and if not, he takes a knee and the loss. and we know he is familiar with both
difficult to imagine that the egos within the ownership have not gotten their heads together to make sure CK does not get hired. but of they did not - or if they are able to conceal evidence that they did - CK remains locked out

Saladin4 said:

He is better than a lot of back ups out there......Also....Agreed a bad team it won't matter but the teams that .500 or so and their starter goes down would be better off with him than playing some untested Rookie

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I watch a fair amount of football so not just speaking out of my ass here, but I don't think he fits in most teams. So far the only team I can see him as a somewhat decent fit would have been Miami, he would have been greatly better than Cutler, or maybe Jacksonville.

After the Rodgers injury he would make sense there potentially as well.

That said, it really isn't about 32 teams blackballing him. Even if he had never kneeled, I don't think 28 or more teams would be interested.

As for the backup, not a lot of teams are willing to put a guy like Kap (kneeling aside) as a backup. Given some of his successes he immediately creates a QB controversy on a lot of teams, and there is the matter of salary. Granted no one knows what kind of salary he is expecting, or was expecting during the off season but I can't imagine he is looking for $700,000 1 year deal when he walked away from 14.5 mil 1 year deal in SF.

I am not saying no teams are looking at the media circus that will follow him in, but I don't think it is the only factor.

Zyphlin said:

But see that's the thing...what you just described doesn't mean collusion.

Collusion is not defined as "not hired for reasons other than ones skills as a QB".

That's not what collusion is. Collusion is an organized scheme or agreement on the part of ownership to not hire Kaepernick. 32 owners, individually, coming to the conclusion that CK does not provide a reasonably positive cost/benefit hire based on his recent play on the field, their belief of how he'd fit in the lockerroom, whether he fits the mold of what they want in a backup QB, if they feel he's worth the size contract he may want, the impact it may have on ticket sales and general fanbase attitudes towards the team, the potential negative media attention and/or the potential disruption and distraction it could cause players on the team. Or you know, there are undoubtedly teams that just believe that their backup QB's they have, who have been in their system, are a better option (take for example the Redskins with Colt McCoy).

None of those factors are "wrong" or "illegal", none of them are instances suggesting inherently collusion, and what they do is present a multitude of different reasons all the various teams could independently come to the decision to not hire Kaepernick for reasons all their own.

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you are quite right. if those 32 owners/GMs INDIVIDUALLY determined CK was not a good fit, he can't win this case
i was surprised vick was re-hired after his dog fighting conviction
and i am surprised CK is not hired given the number of QBs in the league who are less talented

Fenton said:

Its only brought attention to the large scale rejection of the social justice agenda.

You realize Kapernick was awarded with a record 126 million dollar contract when he played with thKapernick

He was payed 40 million from that contract before he flaked out

So its impossible for the average American who does not want someone elses social justice agenda force fed to them to relate to these athletes let alone feel sorry for Kapernick

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I am not sure exactly where you get your info but there is no large scale rejection of social justice agenda. The majority of Americans support it and Kap has gotten people talking and regardless of how people feel about him or kneeling, the majority of Americans agree with the overall message and it continues to get attention.

Kreton said:

I watch a fair amount of football so not just speaking out of my ass here, but I don't think he fits in most teams. So far the only team I can see him as a somewhat decent fit would have been Miami, he would have been greatly better than Cutler, or maybe Jacksonville.

After the Rodgers injury he would make sense there potentially as well.

That said, it really isn't about 32 teams blackballing him. Even if he had never kneeled, I don't think 28 or more teams would be interested.

As for the backup, not a lot of teams are willing to put a guy like Kap (kneeling aside) as a backup. Given some of his successes he immediately creates a QB controversy on a lot of teams, and there is the matter of salary. Granted no one knows what kind of salary he is expecting, or was expecting during the off season but I can't imagine he is looking for $700,000 1 year deal when he walked away from 14.5 mil 1 year deal in SF.

I am not saying no teams are looking at the media circus that will follow him in, but I don't think it is the only factor.

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Good Knowledge.....Your probably right on that analysis

justabubba said:

you are quite right. if those 32 owners/GMs INDIVIDUALLY determined CK was not a good fit, he can't win this case
i was surprised vick was re-hired after his dog fighting conviction
and i am surprised CK is not hired given the number of QBs in the league who are less talented

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It is not always about talent. The owners can individually come to the same conclusion for various reasons without it being collusion.

If you take an honest look at all 32 teams, you will not find many that Kap would be a good fit on.

holbritter said:

I say hire him at the minimum allowed and make him a bench warmer. Might be cheaper than fighting in court. As long as someone offers him a job, bye bye lawsuit.

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that would be the strategically smart (no) play
especially since a new contract would be extremely costly to the owners if CK manages to show evidence of collusion

Kreton said:

I watch a fair amount of football so not just speaking out of my ass here, but I don't think he fits in most teams. So far the only team I can see him as a somewhat decent fit would have been Miami, he would have been greatly better than Cutler, or maybe Jacksonville.

After the Rodgers injury he would make sense there potentially as well.

That said, it really isn't about 32 teams blackballing him. Even if he had never kneeled, I don't think 28 or more teams would be interested.

As for the backup, not a lot of teams are willing to put a guy like Kap (kneeling aside) as a backup. Given some of his successes he immediately creates a QB controversy on a lot of teams, and there is the matter of salary. Granted no one knows what kind of salary he is expecting, or was expecting during the off season but I can't imagine he is looking for $700,000 1 year deal when he walked away from 14.5 mil 1 year deal in SF.

I am not saying no teams are looking at the media circus that will follow him in, but I don't think it is the only factor.

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There are other factors.

The 63 man rosters are set. the only way to sign someone is if someone is on PUP or injured list.
the other thing is if they drop a player then they have to pay his buy out and money and pay the new guy.

The last thing i heard he was looking for 10m and a starting position.
no one is going to give that too him. he is not that great of a QB.

He had 1 good season and then went down from there. I showed his in his QBR.

justabubba said:

that would be the strategically smart (no) play
especially since a new contract would be extremely costly to the owners if CK manages to show evidence of collusion

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you still don't know what collusion is do you?
you keep pandering this for some reason and i am not sure why.
Kap sucks as a QB. He had 1 decent year and then went down hill from there.

he was ranked 23 in accuracy.
they already have back up QB's they are paying. There is no reason to pay more money
for another backup QB.

Kreton said:

I am not sure exactly where you get your info but there is no large scale rejection of social justice agenda. The majority of Americans support it and Kap has gotten people talking and regardless of how people feel about him or kneeling, the majority of Americans agree with the overall message and it continues to get attention.

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Where are you getting your information ? Kapernicks protest is just a extension of a strict adhrance to identity politcs thats cost the Democrats so many elections over the last 7 years

No, the majority of Americans do not agree or relate with a guy who wears socks with pigs as cops embroidered on them and idolizies Communist murdering thugs like Che Guevera.

ludin said:

you still don't know what collusion is do you?
you keep pandering this for some reason and i am not sure why.
Kap sucks as a QB. He had 1 decent year and then went down hill from there.

he was ranked 23 in accuracy.
they already have back up QB's they are paying. There is no reason to pay more money
for another backup QB.

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stick around and you will find out what collusion is
CK's representatives are going to do their best to document it

Good luck proving it Kaep.

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justabubba said:

stick around and you will find out what collusion is
CK's representatives are going to do their best to document it

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making crap up is not evidence. they would actually have to try and get private emails (good luck
that showed all 32 coaches talking with each other saying not to hire this guy.

each team talking internally to not hire him is 100% legit.
and no collusion. so you are begging the question at this point.

he is not worth the cost when they already have backups they are paying.
He isn't this great QB you think he is.

justabubba said:

you are quite right. if those 32 owners/GMs INDIVIDUALLY determined CK was not a good fit, he can't win this case
i was surprised vick was re-hired after his dog fighting conviction
and i am surprised CK is not hired given the number of QBs in the league who are less talented

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I was a bit surprised by Vick as well. However, a few big differences.

Vick had a record breaking season before his suspension and incarceration and has long been viewed as a generational type of talent (as much as I couldn't stand the damned hokie). That was after 4 straight pro-bowl season. The years before his problems were arguably more promising than Kaepernicks last two.

Next, ultimately, time is the great healer of old wounds. Vick basically was gone for 2 years, with his story being a bit of an afterthought that wasn't getting much notoriety outside of his return or as a general kind of side handed joke notion up until he came back. Where as, Kaepernick's protest and what it created has not just continued on the forefront of the sports media and fans minds, but rather has actually intensified.

That also takes us into scope; Vick's thing was, well, Vick's thing. Kaepernick's unfortunately (or fortunately given his goal of activism) shoulders the blame, and the fallout, of every other individual participating in similar protests. So even if HE stops, others carrying his banner still turns the attention and focus and distraction potential onto him. This creates a sort of multiplicative issue for him.

Despite all that, it was still rather surprising when Vick was picked up; but likely it shouldn't have been. As I have said MANY times in all these different threads; extreme talent will be picked up in the NFL, it just will. Michael Vick still possessed generational ability, as evident by his 2010 season where he was an MVP candidate (I got to see him first hand sadly in one of the most miserable game experiences I've ever had). If Kaepernick possessed that kind of talent and the likelihood to realize that kind of talent quickly, I have ZERO doubts a team would grab him.

But it's not just about 32 teams. If a team has a young QB that's set to be their "future", they're not going to want a big personality and focal point like Kaepernick as their backup. If a team has an established franchise QB with a backup who's been in the system, or who better fits their system, they may pass on Kaepernick. If you're at a transitional point, but with eyes to the future...well, no one wants to say "tanking", but yeah; there may be reason why they may want a "worse" or less dynamic QB.

Zyphlin said:

A far better example of collusion was present some years back when teams were penalized for breaking rules that did not actually exist. Nothing came of it.

Here, there's no way to "prove" collusion unless they have some kind of actual records of owners communicating with each other on this matter. The various ownership groups deciding they don't want to deal with the fallout of a Kaepnerick signing is not collusion.

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I believe there was a request that the owners preserve their emails. Don't know if it was Colin Kaepernick's lawyers or the courts. Not sure.

ludin said:

making crap up is not evidence. they would actually have to try and get private emails (good luck
that showed all 32 coaches talking with each other saying not to hire this guy.

each team talking internally to not hire him is 100% legit.
and no collusion. so you are begging the question at this point.

he is not worth the cost when they already have backups they are paying.
He isn't this great QB you think he is.

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i don't think he is a great qb
i do believe he is a better qb than many who are presently playing in the NFL
which causes me to believe there is potentially something to his assertion of collusion

Zyphlin said:

No one "deserves" anything in terms of the NFL. Furthermore, I could flip that on you. Vince Young didn't get a second contract with his team; neither did Tim Tebow, neither did EJ Manuel, neither did Ryan Leaf, neither did RG3.

Kaepernick did. Kaepernicks "second chance" was with the team that signed a 6 year contract extension with his original team.

Also, it's funny you put EJ Manuel on that list next to someone like Vince Young and Ryan Leaf. Because what EJ shows is the difference in how the NFL looks at QB's now, where you're drafted, it's looked to see if you can do the job, and once it becomes obvious you're not going to be "The guy" they'll move on very quick.

PURELY from a football playing stat stand point, is Kaep good enough to be a reasonable backup in this league? Sure. However, it's not a purely stat thing with him, just like it's not a purely stat thing with RG3, and it wasn't just a purely stat thing with Tebow. It's also why the likes of Griffin is released to go with someone like Kevin Hogan instead.

There's a certain mold of the TYPE of QB you tend to want as your backup; typically game manager types that you want to have as a steward. If you have a young main QB, you don't want someone who's going to potentially outshine them in the short time, making their long term development problematic. You don't want someone who's going to generate a lot of controversy and distractions for your team when they're going to be spending most of your time sitting on the bench. That's just a handful of the non "stat' things that play into it.

Even from a "football perspective", there's reasons to potentially pass on Kaepernick beyond "collusion"; however, the reality is football IS a business and BUSINESS decisions are legitimate as well and not necessarily "collusion".

Click to expand...

Outstanding post!

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justabubba said:

saying 'no' may not be enough
it depends on the evidence the CK side is able to offer to the arbitrator who hears this case
if CK's people can show the arbitrator ample evidence of collusion, CK wins
and if not, he takes a knee and the loss. and we know he is familiar with both
difficult to imagine that the egos within the ownership have not gotten their heads together to make sure CK does not get hired. but of they did not - or if they are able to conceal evidence that they did - CK remains locked out

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But, I think you are approaching it like CK owns the job, and the big meanies are all keeping him from what he's owed...Nobody owes him a damned thing!

The NFL is merit based, and with him making everything about him, and not what he can do for a team doesn't make him marketable

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