Cash is already pretty much dead in China as the country lives the future of mobile pay right now

apdst said:

Tech companies are no less prone to scamming people than any other industry.

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They get paid to prevent things not let them happen, they are are the first ones to lose their jobs if anything happens, they have vested interest to make their systems as secure as possible.

Carjosse said:

They get paid to prevent things not let them happen, they are are the first ones to lose their jobs if anything happens, they have vested interest to make their systems as secure as possible.

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That's exactly right and if they event the one system that can't be hacked, the industry will die.

Do you think car companies want to build a car that never breaks down? Or, if it does break down, that you can just fix yourself and never take it to the dealer? Have you ever heard of "dealer only" spare parts?

Carjosse said:

Look at the post above yours, the chip still is not accepted most places, let alone more advanced forms of payments.

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Yea. Cash has been fine. Will continue to be fine as well. Especially as the only way to effectively take it...is to physically do so.

I'm old enough to remember when ATMs first came in. These were promoted as ways for customers to cut down on the overhead costs related to their accounts and to provide customers with "FREE" access to their funds 24/7. Didn't take long for ATMs to virtually replace tellers in banks as the banking institutions have made it incredibly time consuming to actually enter a bank and do business with a live person. And big surprise, many ATM transactions are no longer "FREE" unless, of course, you pay for a monthly plan that allows you x number of "FREE" transactions. Don't be surprised if the banking institutions make electronic pay virtually indispensable to the youth of today and then start charging you for the privilege.

I'm also old enough to know that if you don't actually have cash in your hand to pay for something you actually forget the value of what you're buying. There's nothing like counting out the cash at the register to get you thinking about what you're buying and how much it's costing you. However, if you just swipe your card or your phone over a display and the nice clerk hands you goodies, you can forget you actually have to pay for it. And then, when the bill arrives or you get denied because you've already cleaned out your account without knowing it, or better yet the bank hits you with a massive overdrawn charge, you suddenly realize buying stuff isn't necessarily all that easy.

Finally, as an old fart, I resist the intrusion of technology on my life and only use it when it's convenient to me. Hopefully, I'll be long dead before I have to carry around a dumb phone in order to pay for a coffee.

Whenever possible, US industry doesn't pay directly for it's own infrastructure.

They wait until the demand is deafening, and then point at the costs and get the government to underwrite a big roll-out. It's the American way.

That, or they'll get picked to tatter by small start-ups that focus on the customer. One can dream.

I can confirm the chip is a fairly rare thing in the Los Angeles area.

They started popping up in retailers a couple years ago, and I'd say they're about 50/50 right now.

We need all our money for union pensions in CA.

Absentglare said:

That's just a less convenient, older-fashioned form of the exact same social dependence.

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Not quite. :no:

The only thing they share is assurance by the issuer that they are both legal tender for all transactions public and private.

Electronic currency remains in the absolute control of the issuing authority.

That means an electronic record of every transaction; an easy means to assess taxes; as well as the means to prevent any individual from access to their funds simply by locking them out electronically.

On the other hand, once a coin is stamped or a bill is printed into circulation, the control switches from the issuer to the possessor.

This means that private transactions can occur without government monitoring or interference.

This means that personal wealth can never be completely assessed.

This means that as long as the funds are either in hand, or stored privately, they cannot be wholly "frozen" or wholly confiscated.

In short, electronic currency makes one more subject to central authority, while hard currency allows for more individual independence. :coffeepap:

Captain Adverse said:

Not quite. :no:

The only thing they share is assurance by the issuer that they are both legal tender for all transactions public and private.

Electronic currency remains in the absolute control of the issuing authority.

That means an electronic record of every transaction; an easy means to assess taxes; as well as the means to prevent any individual from access to their funds simply by locking them out electronically.

On the other hand, once a coin is stamped or a bill is printed into circulation, the control switches from the issuer to the possessor.

This means that private transactions can occur without government monitoring or interference.

This means that personal wealth can never be completely assessed.

This means that as long as the funds are either in hand, or stored privately, they cannot be wholly "frozen" or wholly confiscated.

In short, electronic currency makes one more subject to central authority, while hard currency allows for more individual independence. :coffeepap:

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Maybe i didn't explain my point very well.

Currency is a medium of exchange. Whether you have paper tokens or electronic tokens, you are still spending tokens in a system that you are dependent upon.

If you go to the grocery store and spend cash, you accept goods that a farmer labored for, a trucker transported, a stocker unpacked, and a cashier traded. You are dependent upon the rest of society, money is simply a dimension of dependence.

You seem to have some superstitious fear of government, but you're happily embracing a paper form of the exact same thing. Not sure why you think it's such a good thing that cash makes it easier to commit tax fraud.

Celebrity said:

I'm not sure I would like to conduct only cashless transactions. So, it's a good thing I'm not Chinese.

I guess it would make sense in a country that wants to centralize their economy. This sort of technology meshes well with data collection. But I'm not sure how this will affect the Chinese people if their economy is expanding at the same time. Aren't Chinese businesses becoming less regulated?

We will have to wait and see what measures are taken to keep the population in check.

Oh, and don't forget to look out for creeping communism, America. Those mobile pay apps are really taking eastern Asia by storm. Wow. Maybe the apps will include propaganda ads to brainwash communists into thinking that the government is good and foreigners are bad.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/08/china-is-living-the-future-of-mobile-pay-right-now.html

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I don’t think I’d have a problem. I use very little cash myself. Imagine what it would do tonthe counterfeit market.

Absentglare said:

Maybe i didn't explain my point very well.

Currency is a medium of exchange. Whether you have paper tokens or electronic tokens, you are still spending tokens in a system that you are dependent upon.

If you go to the grocery store and spend cash, you accept goods that a farmer labored for, a trucker transported, a stocker unpacked, and a cashier traded. You are dependent upon the rest of society, money is simply a dimension of dependence.

You seem 1. to have some superstitious fear of government, but 2, you're happily embracing a paper form of the exact same thing. Not sure why you think it's such a good thing that cash makes it easier to commit tax fraud.

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1. Governments are not always friendly to their own citizens; especially if they are dissidents, or classes (like slaves, social outcasts, the homeless, etc.) who live on the edges of society for one reason or another.

I prefer as much freedom as I can obtain. I do not think government should act like my parent, however well-intentioned. That includes monitoring how I utilize my funds.

In fact, the way things are going with people on the Left trying to control free speech, freedom of thought, the right to keep and bear arms, and other goals of SJW conformity...I am not surprised most arguments for more centralized control over people's lives seem to come these days from that political direction.

2. You ignore my points about the essential differences between coin/paper and electronic "currency" to pursue your own narrative. Typical. :roll:

There is no argument about having a form of currency which alleviates the need to barter. The argument is about which allows more individual freedom as opposed to more government control.

To paraphrase one of my favorite sayings; surrendering essential liberties (yes, economic freedom is an essential liberty) in exchange for promises of convenience and security, results in loss of both liberty and security. :twocents:

Carjosse said:

No, it is refusing to adopt an objectively better technology, that is being a laggard.

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No, it is not objectively better. It is subjectively better in some people's minds. I have no issue using cash or debit card. I do not wish to adopt the new system, and most people agree with me. Hence the market isn't there, hence its failing in the free market

EMNofSeattle said:

No, it is not objectively better. It is subjectively better in some people's minds. I have no issue using cash or debit card. I do not wish to adopt the new system, and most people agree with me. Hence the market isn't there, hence its failing in the free market

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It is objectively better, it is more secure than just swiping your card.

Captain Adverse said:

1. Governments are not always friendly to their own citizens; especially if they are dissidents, or classes (like slaves, social outcasts, the homeless, etc.) who live on the edges of society for one reason or another.

I prefer as much freedom as I can obtain. I do not think government should act like my parent, however well-intentioned. That includes monitoring how I utilize my funds.

In fact, the way things are going with people on the Left trying to control free speech, freedom of thought, the right to keep and bear arms, and other goals of SJW conformity...I am not surprised most arguments for more centralized control over people's lives seem to come these days from that political direction.

2. You ignore my points about the essential differences between coin/paper and electronic "currency" to pursue your own narrative. Typical. :roll:

There is no argument about having a form of currency which alleviates the need to barter. The argument is about which allows more individual freedom as opposed to more government control.

To paraphrase one of my favorite sayings; surrendering essential liberties (yes, economic freedom is an essential liberty) in exchange for promises of convenience and security, results in loss of both liberty and security. :twocents:

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Using a credit card gives me more freedom, not less. I have no fees as long as i pay them off every month and i get cash back, as well as seasonal discounts. I don't have to waste gas getting cash, i don't have to worry about change, i never eat a loss of money due to human erred arithmetic; there is literally no downside.

If the system came all crashing down, cash would probably be about as useful.

As for surveillance, i don't like government surveillance. I don't like big corporate surveillance. I think proper competition prevents the formation of big corporate forces, and government surveillance should be controlled through proper public oversight. Hiding from those problems by using cash doesn't address those problems for my neighbors.

Carjosse said:

It is objectively better, it is more secure than just swiping your card.

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Sure, if the only thing you accept is EMV. It doesn’t make a whit of difference if every retailer still accepts magstripe - and they do.

cashless does make it much easier for government to establish a paper trail. Easier for private corporations as well. I'll stick to cash at the strip club I think..

HowardBThiname said:

I use credit-card-by-phone at the local farmer's market. If the old gal that sells her produce there can take credit cards using a clip that attaches to her phone, I guess just about anyone should be able to. My son showed me how to use coupons on my smart phone at the grocery store.

I asked him what would happen to all of this technology if someone were to blow all the satellites out of orbit and he just laughed at me.

And yet - I wonder.

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I like using the technology, and I indeed do use some of it.

But I even more prefer having some readily available and accessible cash squirreled away!