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House to vote on abortion ban after 20 weeks of pregnancy

Mr Person said:
Roe got it right by tying the right to abort to viability, since we cannot arrive at an objectively provable point at which potential life becomes life. (Indeed, even trying to define what life is is a rather thorny problem). It really is the only sensible way to balance the rights of the mother against those of the potential life.




20 weeks is below the point of viability. The survival rate is 0 at that stage. They generally do not even provide intensive care to try to save those born at 23 weeks. A 20 week ban is pointless.

Because medical technology will continue to advance, the point of viability may/will drop over time as a result anyway, making this doubly pointless.




At best, this is an attempt by the GOP to distract from its utter failure to accomplish things since Trump won. It won't pass, and they'll get to grandstand about baby-hating Democrats.
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2 years old is prior to the point of viability.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
It's also a lie. A 20-week fetus can't feel pain. It doesn't have a working brain. Literally not a single functional neuron in its head. So how would it feel pain?

The best guess for when fetuses start to be capable of feeling pain is actually around 30 weeks -- an age were we obviously don't abort for any reason other than extreme emergencies where the fetus is probably already deceased anyway.

You can't feel pain without working neurons. You can't do much of anything, actually. And this is it's so touch-and-go with preemies, even if they're, say, 27 weeks. Technically, they might have enough lung tissue to breathe and enough brain matter to survive, but because their brain function is so low, they can't coordinate their breathing, or adopt a proper sleep schedule that allows them to recover from their trauma.

The idea of a 20-week fetus feeling pain is pure biological fantasy.
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I think the logic here is to allow a 3 week "error" period from 23 weeks, which is what is considered the borderline of viability. A specialist might be right on the money as to the age of the fetus, but a general practitioner who doesn't have the latest technology might be off a little. I do agree with the GOP on this one. Unless rape or incest is discovered later, I believe that 20 weeks is plenty of time for the woman to make up her mind to keep it or not.
 
danarhea said:
I think the logic here is to allow a 3 week "error" period from 23 weeks, which is what is considered the borderline of viability. A specialist might be right on the money as to the age of the fetus, but a general practitioner who doesn't have the latest technology might be off a little. I do agree with the GOP on this one. Unless rape or incest is discovered later, I believe that 20 weeks is plenty of time for the woman to make up her mind to keep it or not.
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But that is not what this about.

The US is not like European countries that allows abortions for major fetal abnormalies.
Most states do NOT and this law does NOT allow up to 24 weeks for fetal abnormalities.

From a 2013 article:

Published: May 21, 2013
A federal appellate panel struck down Arizona’s abortion law on Tuesday, saying it was unconstitutional “under a long line of invariant Supreme Court precedents” that guarantee a woman’s right to end a pregnancy any time before a fetus is deemed viable outside her womb — generally at 24 weeks.

The law, enacted in April 2012 despite vociferous protest by women’s and civil rights groups, made abortions illegal if performed 20 weeks after a woman’s last menstrual period, or roughly 18 weeks after fertilization, even if the woman learned that the fetus had no chance of surviving after birth.
At 18 weeks, many fetal abnormalities can be detected through sonograms.
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Arizona?s Ban on Abortions Struck Down in Federal Court - The New York Times
 
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Fletch said:
Restrictions already exist on guns too.
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If you can't name any additional measures you'd be willing to "consider," then you weren't being truthful in the post I quoted. QED
 
Deuce said:
If you can't name any additional measures you'd be willing to "consider," then you weren't being truthful in the post I quoted. QED
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What?
 
Fletch said:
What?
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There aren't any restrictions on guns you are willing to "consider." The post you started with "tell you what" was disingenuous.
 
MrWonka said:
For starters let's acknowledge reality here. The House is voting on a bill that they know full well to be unconstitutional under Roe v. Wade in the hopes that Neil Gorsuch and their stolen supreme court seat might overturn it. That fact alone is disturbing.

Secondly, There are plenty of bad side effects of a pregnancy that women don't fully understand until well into the pregnancy. The pain, the sickness, the bodily deformation.... Maybe she's holding out trying to get the husband to supporter her. Maybe she wants to wait and see if there are any birth defects that might show up later on in the pregnancy.

But the most important issue here, and the primary foundation for Roe v Wade is privacy. How would the government truly know a woman was pregnant before she began to outwardly show obvious and unmistakable signs? If a woman had a miscarriage after 20 weeks how would the government know that she didn't some how self abort?

What people need to understand about Abortion is that it's not just about women who want to abort. It's about ALL WOMEN, and what the government could potentially subject them to even if they themselves have no intention of aborting at all. Even if you believe abortion is wrong, you're talking about subjecting every women who has a miscarriage to a homicide investigation in which her body is the crime scene, and she is the prime suspect. Potential mothers who have just suffered the tremendous loss of what they considered to be their child will now have to be treated as murder suspects.

You're also requiring Doctors to rat out their patients to the government. Not only potentially breaking patient doctor confidentiality, but making women leery of visiting a doctor. Have you asked yourself how exactly will the government know for sure what week of the pregnancy the woman is in? As a woman would you want that information devulged to the government?

I hear conservatives talk all the time(particularly recently) about how banning guns won't eliminate guns. All it will do is make good guys give up their guns, while bad guys will still have them. Background checks will be a pain in the ass and subject all gun owners to intrusive checks that could potentially be used to block their rights. Well what the hell do you think is going to happen if you try and ban abortion?

Thankfully abortion has been legal for quite some time now, but unfortunately people seem to forget about all the horrible side effects that came along in the past with attempts to ban abortions. Abortion opponents focus on what they consider the murder of a baby, but you don't think about the horrible ramifications of giving the Government domain over a woman's body. That is a horrible rammification that you forget all about because thankfully it hasn't happened in decades.
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I think you've explained it quite well. Thank you.
 
Renae said:
If this is the step that end Roe Vs Wade it's the best step of the 2017 Congress
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Why?? Why would you deny someone the right to choose?? Would you want someone telling you what to do?? Do you think someone else knows better than you??
 
minnie616 said:
Not a step on the path to ending Roe and
I hope it does not stand up.

I miscarried a very deformed little one at 20 weeks.
Had my little one not miscarried the little one and I had carried it longer it never would lived.
I call it an it not out of disrespect but because my doctor told me that pathology told him even if I had carried it longer , it never would have lived. It was just too malformed. It was so malformed that pathology could not even tell if it was a boy or a girl.

At least I know it never suffered any pain when it died within me since a fetus cannot feel any pain at 20 weeks.
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Thank you for sharing your story. I know how difficult it is.
 
Deuce said:
Abortion should be legal up to the age of eighteen. Not an adult yet, better act right. Or else.
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Naaaa - when they're about 12 you put them in a barrel and feed them through a hole - at 18 - you plug the hole. J/K
 
jghiretire said:
Why?? Why would you deny someone the right to choose?? Would you want someone telling you what to do?? Do you think someone else knows better than you??
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I believe in Life, you had the right to choose not to have sex when you were not ready.

THAT is where the CHOICE is. Now, life of the mother/child, rape and insect are different situations.

But otherwise, make the wise choice before it takes murder to correct.
 
danarhea said:
I think the logic here is to allow a 3 week "error" period from 23 weeks, which is what is considered the borderline of viability. A specialist might be right on the money as to the age of the fetus, but a general practitioner who doesn't have the latest technology might be off a little. I do agree with the GOP on this one. Unless rape or incest is discovered later, I believe that 20 weeks is plenty of time for the woman to make up her mind to keep it or not.
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The 'pain' part is completely bull****, used to prey on the weak-minded emotional people or the uneducated (on the issue).

And there are indeed cases where that is not enough time to determine major physical or mental maladies in the unborn. OTOH, women do not have "elective" abortions that late, so it's just useless, feel-good, dishonest legislation. The House wasting taxpayer time and $. Misleading regular people, making them stooges, in order to support their future election agendas.
 
Renae said:
I believe in Life, you had the right to choose not to have sex when you were not ready.

THAT is where the CHOICE is. Now, life of the mother/child, rape and insect are different situations.

But otherwise, make the wise choice before it takes murder to correct.
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Yes, people in committed relationships, or married couples, shouldnt have sex until they are emotionally and financially prepared to have kids. (Because no birth control is 100% if you want kids later).

Whew! There goes the divorce rate!

It's not murder. Your misuse of the word shows emotion controls your perspective.
 
Lursa said:
Yes, people in committed relationships, or married couples, shouldnt have sex until they are emotionally and financially prepared to have kids. (Because no birth control is 100% if you want kids later).

Whew! There goes the divorce rate!

It's not murder. Your misuse of the word shows emotion controls your perspective.
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Is the child innocent? Are the being killed because someone chose to kill them?

That's murder
 
Renae said:
Is the child innocent? Are the being killed because someone chose to kill them?

That's murder
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No, it's not the correct use of the term. The pregnant woman is innocent too. What crime did she commit?

The 'innocence' argument is just more emotional blackmail. The unborn isnt innocent, it has no capacity for innocence or evil. Both...and everything in between...require intent, which the unborn is not capable of. It is empty, a vacuum, at that point.
 
20 weeks sounds reasonable. A woman needs to decide with five months whether or not to have the baby. By then they feel all the pain of being pulled apart into pieces, heads crushed, all the trauma. My daughter was born premature at six months, and is a fully functional adult now. At some point an abortion is murder.
 
Lursa said:
No, it's not the correct use of the term. The pregnant woman is innocent too. What crime did she commit?

The 'innocence' argument is just more emotional blackmail. The unborn isnt innocent, it has no capacity for innocence or evil. Both...and everything in between...require intent, which the unborn is not capable of. It is empty, a vacuum, at that point.
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She killed her child.
 
Renae said:
She killed her child.
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Um, no. You are objecting to abortion.

And that it should be illegal (correct?)

There's no dead fetus before an abortion...just a pregnant woman. The pregnant woman is just as innocent.
 
Lursa said:
The 'pain' part is completely bull****, used to prey on the weak-minded emotional people or the uneducated (on the issue).

And there are indeed cases where that is not enough time to determine major physical or mental maladies in the unborn. OTOH, women do not have "elective" abortions that late, so it's just useless, feel-good, dishonest legislation. The House wasting taxpayer time and $. Misleading regular people, making them stooges, in order to support their future election agendas.
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I agree that the bill is misnamed, but I agree with what is actually inside the bill. Putting propaganda in the bill does not help, though.
 
danarhea said:
I think the logic here is to allow a 3 week "error" period from 23 weeks, which is what is considered the borderline of viability. A specialist might be right on the money as to the age of the fetus, but a general practitioner who doesn't have the latest technology might be off a little. I do agree with the GOP on this one. Unless rape or incest is discovered later, I believe that 20 weeks is plenty of time for the woman to make up her mind to keep it or not.
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So, genuinely, do you know what the limit of viability means? Not being snarky. It's a screwy definition.

The limit of viability is the point at which 50% of the babies survive the birth itself -- and it still counts if they require life support to do it.

It does not mean they will ever have functional bodies, or any ability to live a full life.

It does not mean they will ultimately survive infancy or childhood. It doesn't even mean they'll ever leave the hospital.

Just the birth.

A majority of babies born at 24 weeks -- which is the official point of viability -- still die, either during birth or in the days, weeks, or months afterwards. Many of those who survive are severely disabled.

At 23 weeks, most don't even survive birth. With a super-premie, every individual day of gestation they lose cuts off 5% from the chance of surviving birth. So at 23 weeks, their odds are 15%. And that's JUST surviving the birth. That doesn't mean they'll ever leave the hospital. They probably won't. In some countries, it is actually illegal to treat babies born at 23 weeks or under, because it's considered cruelty.

And what this dramatic, daily shift of chances of survival should tell you is that it's basically impossible to mistake a 20-week fetus for a 24-week fetus, or visa versa. The difference in size and development is absolutely massive. This is the most rapid period of fetal growth and development.

Now. With that out of the way, like I said, there are a lot of extreme or fatal pregnancy and fetal disorders that we can't even detect until 20 weeks. So you're telling me these women should not be permitted any treatment to protect their lives or spare their baby suffering before their death? We should be like Ireland, that waits until the woman is dying before we do anything?
 
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danarhea said:
I agree that the bill is misnamed, but I agree with what is actually inside the bill. Putting propaganda in the bill does not help, though.
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Can you please explain why the bill is needed? How many elective abortions occur after 21 weeks?
 
Lursa said:
Um, no. You are objecting to abortion.

And that it should be illegal (correct?)

There's no dead fetus before an abortion...just a pregnant woman. The pregnant woman is just as innocent.
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I do not accept, ascribe to or back in anyway the absurdly unscientific and immoral position that a fetus is not an individual life, separate in being from it's mother. An unborn child from the moment of conception is a new human life. To snuff out a life for convenience is the most reprehensible act in modern society.
 
I support this.

Although I still find the rape and incest clause hypocritical. So it's OK to kill a viable life if you are morally opposed to how it was created?

It just demonstrates how morally inconsistent the pro-life are.
 
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