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Bernie Sanders rolls out Medicare-for-All plan

JasperL said:
I guess I'd keep avoiding answering direct questions too if I were you. Not much else you can do. The individual market under ACA has a lot of direct parallels with the employer market, and people LOOOOVE their employer based insurance. For some reason, though, when the same general principles apply to the individual market, it's the end of freedom as we know it. Doesn't make sense, which you've figured out, so what can you do?
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I can't help but wonder how wages would be effected, and productivity by the employer, if the employer did not have the costs associated with providing insurance for employees? If medical care for every individual were paid (single payer) by the government from general tax revenues?
 
Thoreau72 said:
I can't help but wonder how wages would be effected, and productivity by the employer, if the employer did not have the costs associated with providing insurance for employees? If medical care for every individual were paid (single payer) by the government from general tax revenues?
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That's one thing that has always mystified me. I really don't understand why employers, and especially smaller employers (up to a 1,000 employees at least) aren't more supportive of some kind of non-employer based UHC. Healthcare is a massive cost to those employers that they cannot really control, it's time consuming to deal with, and small employers are at a big disadvantage to their large competitors, who self insure, have bigger pools to better spread risk and therefore have more predictable annual costs and lower costs per employee.

I'd have thought at least many employers would get solidly behind some alternative to our work based system. And if we had it, surely UHC of some kind would encourage entrepreneurship - if someone knows that no matter what happens their disabled child, spouse with history of cancer or heart disease, etc. will have access to health care, it's got to make the leap from the comfort of big employer to small business easier and more attractive.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I can't help but wonder how wages would be effected, and productivity by the employer, if the employer did not have the costs associated with providing insurance for employees? If medical care for every individual were paid (single payer) by the government from general tax revenues?
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It is an interesting question to ponder. Currently America spends more on, with less access to Health Care than other modern, advanced nations. Something like single payer would indeed require more in taxes, but would the amount necessary in taxation be less than that which we spend, on average, on healthcare otherwise?

There are some fundamental issues which allowed the healthcare industry to become so cost bloated, and single-payer is a way to try to address that, but it's by no means a guarantee that it can be.

Still, it does seem that our system is broken, and if you look at most other nations with high healthcare marks, they all run some form of government insurance, be it single-payer, or some add-mixture of state/private.
 
Ikari said:
Something like single payer would indeed require more in taxes, but would the amount necessary in taxation be less than that which we spend, on average, on healthcare otherwise?
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As currently proposed, probably not.

Anyway, this should've waited until the GOP's reconciliation opportunity expires after 9/30. Trying to suck up oxygen while Graham-Cassidy is still out there is counterproductive.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I can't help but wonder how wages would be effected, and productivity by the employer, if the employer did not have the costs associated with providing insurance for employees? If medical care for every individual were paid (single payer) by the government from general tax revenues?
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This would be a GOVERNMENT health care system. In other words, the main source of funding is tax payer money, so that would mean employers, along with everybody else, would have to put a substantial amount of money in (even more than most people). Even though they still need to pay their employees, due to keeping the health care system going, wages would be down as a result because about half, or more than half (or whatever the case might be), of the money being brought in for the business and the employer is being pulled into the single payer insurance. It affect productivity because employers may have to either lay off workers, make some of them part time, and/or, due to the cost, the product that they normally produce would be hard to get in.

Crazy Bernie said that this would cost $32,000,000,000,000 (trillion). Employers would have a heck of a time paying their employees, provide health care, and stay in business. If Crazy Bernie had his way, businesses across the nation would go out. Trust me when say, Crazy Bernie, and others in the government, will NOT reach into their own pockets to pay for this. Even if they did, the combined income with everyone in this nation, couldn't even begin to scratch the surface of having this paid. We're $20 trillion in debt, so Crazy Bernie would live up to his name if we went through with this.

In conclusion, this affects ALL taxpayers, not just a select few. The most terrible thing behind this is, everything that I mentioned doesn't even include gas, water, electric, school, property, car, phone, credit card, food, meds, and whatever else as far as bills for plans and taxes for products. We don't have the money, but people like Crazy Bernie don't care.
 
The gorilla in the room for all of these attempts at single payer is that the supporters see the need to kill private insurance at the same time that they implement single payer.

Everyone knows that the reason why this is ALWAYS a perquisite is because deep down the Bernie Sanderses of the world know that given a direct comparison the government program would always be inferior to the private program.
 
Herkamer63 said:
This would be a GOVERNMENT health care system. In other words, the main source of funding is tax payer money, so that would mean employers, along with everybody else, would have to put a substantial amount of money in (even more than most people). Even though they still need to pay their employees, due to keeping the health care system going, wages would be down as a result because about half, or more than half (or whatever the case might be), of the money being brought in for the business and the employer is being pulled into the single payer insurance. It affect productivity because employers may have to either lay off workers, make some of them part time, and/or, due to the cost, the product that they normally produce would be hard to get in.

Crazy Bernie said that this would cost $32,000,000,000,000 (trillion). Employers would have a heck of a time paying their employees, provide health care, and stay in business. If Crazy Bernie had his way, businesses across the nation would go out. Trust me when say, Crazy Bernie, and others in the government, will NOT reach into their own pockets to pay for this. Even if they did, the combined income with everyone in this nation, couldn't even begin to scratch the surface of having this paid. We're $20 trillion in debt, so Crazy Bernie would live up to his name if we went through with this.

In conclusion, this affects ALL taxpayers, not just a select few. The most terrible thing behind this is, everything that I mentioned doesn't even include gas, water, electric, school, property, car, phone, credit card, food, meds, and whatever else as far as bills for plans and taxes for products. We don't have the money, but people like Crazy Bernie don't care.
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There are other options available.

For example, money taken from our extravagant and wasteful military spending, just a small amount, could be used to fund healthcare. If this country were not being controlled by the military industrial complex, we could make more rational decisions about spending for public health.
 
jmotivator said:
The gorilla in the room for all of these attempts at single payer is that the supporters see the need to kill private insurance at the same time that they implement single payer.

Everyone knows that the reason why this is ALWAYS a perquisite is because deep down the Bernie Sanderses of the world know that given a direct comparison the government program would always be inferior to the private program.
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Utterly and completely factually incorrect
 
vegas giants said:
Utterly and completely factually incorrect
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Nope. Absolutely 100% true. What is wrong in my statement?

Why does Bernie's bill forbid private insurance?
 
jmotivator said:
Nope. Absolutely 100% true. What is wrong in my statement?

Why does Bernie's bill forbid private insurance?
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It did not forbid private insurance. Single payer is less expensive, covers more and provides better care than the for profit model
 
Thoreau72 said:
There are other options available.

For example, money taken from our extravagant and wasteful military spending, just a small amount, could be used to fund healthcare. If this country were not being controlled by the military industrial complex, we could make more rational decisions about spending for public health.
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We do spend quite a bit on the military, so no arguments here on that. However, even if we did cut back, the math (the money) isn't there. Let me recap: We're $20 trillion in debt already. Crazy Bernie proposed his $32 trillion Medicare "for all" plan. With the debt plus the single payer Medicare plan, the combined total would come out to $52 trillion. Cutting back on military spending, taxing the rich 90%, creating more "green jobs", cutting back on oil, and whatever else proposed, won't even make a dent in paying for all this. This will probably sound extreme, but the only possible way to even pay for this thing, while paying down the debt, is everyone (including the poor) have to pay 95% taxes, sell off their homes, their cars, phones, businesses (to whoever internationally), luxuries, clothes, shoes, and food. So basically our entire lives, just to have this. Even then, it's way too unlikely, but let's say we do go through what I proposed. We'd be reduced to a 3rd world country, and no one would even live a healthy (let alone happy and long) life.

In short, Crazy Bernie sucks at math, and so does his single payer plan. Although, the back of my mind is also saying that he knows what he's doing incorrect and morally wrong, but doesn't care. If he can somehow profit from this, somehow, he'll do it. Fun Fact: we spend more on Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid, individually, than what we do on our military.
 
Herkamer63 said:
We do spend quite a bit on the military, so no arguments here on that. However, even if we did cut back, the math (the money) isn't there. Let me recap: We're $20 trillion in debt already. Crazy Bernie proposed his $32 trillion Medicare "for all" plan. With the debt plus the single payer Medicare plan, the combined total would come out to $52 trillion. Cutting back on military spending, taxing the rich 90%, creating more "green jobs", cutting back on oil, and whatever else proposed, won't even make a dent in paying for all this. This will probably sound extreme, but the only possible way to even pay for this thing, while paying down the debt, is everyone (including the poor) have to pay 95% taxes, sell off their homes, their cars, phones, businesses (to whoever internationally), luxuries, clothes, shoes, and food. So basically our entire lives, just to have this. Even then, it's way too unlikely, but let's say we do go through what I proposed. We'd be reduced to a 3rd world country, and no one would even live a healthy (let alone happy and long) life.

In short, Crazy Bernie sucks at math, and so does his single payer plan. Although, the back of my mind is also saying that he knows what he's doing incorrect and morally wrong, but doesn't care. If he can somehow profit from this, somehow, he'll do it. Fun Fact: we spend more on Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid, individually, than what we do on our military.
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Why is it do you think that every UHC country on earth, dozens upon dozens of countries, can insure every man, woman and child in their country from cradle to grave at a fraction of what we're paying now, but somehow UHC in America is some kind of unicorn land fantasy? Bernie doesn't suck at math, you suck at economics and politics. Your over-the-top end of the world scenario if UHC was implemented is ridiculous and completely incompatible with reality. We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world yet we're nowhere near the top in quality of outcome rankings or % of citizens insured. Open your eyes.
 
Herkamer63 said:
We do spend quite a bit on the military, so no arguments here on that. However, even if we did cut back, the math (the money) isn't there. Let me recap: We're $20 trillion in debt already. Crazy Bernie proposed his $32 trillion Medicare "for all" plan. With the debt plus the single payer Medicare plan, the combined total would come out to $52 trillion. Cutting back on military spending, taxing the rich 90%, creating more "green jobs", cutting back on oil, and whatever else proposed, won't even make a dent in paying for all this. This will probably sound extreme, but the only possible way to even pay for this thing, while paying down the debt, is everyone (including the poor) have to pay 95% taxes, sell off their homes, their cars, phones, businesses (to whoever internationally), luxuries, clothes, shoes, and food. So basically our entire lives, just to have this. Even then, it's way too unlikely, but let's say we do go through what I proposed. We'd be reduced to a 3rd world country, and no one would even live a healthy (let alone happy and long) life.

In short, Crazy Bernie sucks at math, and so does his single payer plan. Although, the back of my mind is also saying that he knows what he's doing incorrect and morally wrong, but doesn't care. If he can somehow profit from this, somehow, he'll do it. Fun Fact: we spend more on Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid, individually, than what we do on our military.
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You insist on calling him crazy, and that tells me you're not quite as serious as you might like to think you are.

Those Crazy Nurses (ANA I think) several years ago proposed a very small tax on financial transactions in the stock market, that legalized gambling emporium. Depending upon whether it would be a full penny or less than that, and of course the activity in trades, the amount generated would easily be enough to finance a healthcare delivery system.

There are many options besides cutting military spending. I'm for serious discussion about it.
 
Thoreau72 said:
There are other options available.

For example, money taken from our extravagant and wasteful military spending, just a small amount, could be used to fund healthcare. If this country were not being controlled by the military industrial complex, we could make more rational decisions about spending for public health.
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Nope, total federal government spending is now less than 20% of GDP (about 4% of GDP now being spent on the military) so there is no way to spend close to 18% of GDP on medical care for all without a serious increase in taxation or doing away with most of the rest of federal spending.
 
Thoreau72 said:
You insist on calling him crazy, and that tells me you're not quite as serious as you might like to think you are.

Those Crazy Nurses (ANA I think) several years ago proposed a very small tax on financial transactions in the stock market, that legalized gambling emporium. Depending upon whether it would be a full penny or less than that, and of course the activity in trades, the amount generated would easily be enough to finance a healthcare delivery system.

There are many options besides cutting military spending. I'm for serious discussion about it.
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For everything he's proposed, he is crazy. I don't think it's serious at all just calling Bernie (that's too childish given the circumstances of this man). Crazy Bernie really is what people should be calling him. And I've told you, the math and the money is not there, even with these cuts. You seem to be ignoring this but I'll say it again in more detail: The USA is $20,000,000,000,000 (20 trillion dollars) in debt. We have spent way too much money on Obamacare (ACA), Medicare, Medicaid, military spending, green "jobs", climate change policies" giving money to foreign nations, paying for illegals to stay, spending money on teacher and worker unions, and the list goes on. Now, it's being proposed to spend $32,000,000,000,000 (32 trillion dollars) on more government healthcare that's single payer, that would put us at $52,000,000,000,000 (52 trillion dollars) in debt? You would have to be crazy and/or stupid to do it. We don't generate any significant money that'll boost our economy.

The national debt needs paid down first before even something like that. I wouldn't do it anyway because even if we did pay off our current amount, we'd go right back into it with a larger amount, and it would take much longer to pay it. How do we pay off the current debt? First off, Obamacare needs eliminated. Medicare and Medicaid funding NEEDS cut. Combined total for both cost over a trillion dollars by itself per year. One of those 3 alone would greatly help with paying down our debt. Military funding can be cut, mainly where money is being spent SJW stuff, like funding for transgender treatment and stupid stuff that are similar. The green "jobs" and climate change funding can be eliminated or cut down to almost nothing, along with giving money to foreign nations that are our enemies. Stop spending money on illegals and the unions, especially teacher unions. I almost forgot, lets cut off funding from special interests groups like Planned Parenthood. These were the major ones, and if all that happened, it would greatly reduce our debt.

Now, what about the single payer healthcare system Crazy Bernie has proposed? Simple: DON'T DO IT! I don't want our country having more debt for something that's less than mediocre. Deductibles are out of control as they are now, they don't cover much, and they can change the policy without anyone knowing about it. So yes, it is appropriate to call the Senator (an insult to the position) crazy. Nothing he has said about economics has any logic nor reasoning. He was, is, and always will be (unless he straightens up) Crazy Bernie.
 
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