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Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House respon

Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
not sure i understand the question.
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Would Nazi punchers get sent to Gitmo?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

It will be important to take note that if the White House complies with the petition's request, then the Federal government under Trump will have officially decided that White Supremacist groups are not terrorist organizations and that groups that oppose them are.

Let that sink in.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
as long as it is violence on something i agree with then that violence is ok.
morale relativism at it's finest, and why it is so dangerous.

Assaulting a person is assaulting a person no matter what the person believes or doesn't believe. Throwing and breaking businesses windows is vandalism no matter what that person believes or doesn't believe.
so please tell us what offensive thing bank and other business windows did to be vandalized? what supposed message was the window sending that it should get destroyed?

You don't have to draw any kind of equivalence. both of these groups are extremist groups that need to be banished from mainstream society and pushed back into their holes.
now who is doing the equivalence thing? not me you. I recognized these morons on both sides for what they are scum.

you attempt to justify threat of violence and destruction because one side agree's with your political view.
that right there is the very thing that the rest of us need to fight against.
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I literally just said that I don't condone violence from either side - so your very first sentence is absolute bunk.

As for the rest of it, again, you're the one that is putting nazi's and antifa on the same level. There are different levels of 'scum' and it's dishonest not to recognize that. Antifa is an ideology that combats fascism - and they count vandals amongst their members. Naziism/white supremacy is an ideology that advocates genocide, and they count dictators, torturers and mass murderers amongst theirs. One of these groups is many magnitudes worse than the other, and calling them both 'scum' actively ignores that nuance.

The world isn't black and white, 'scum' vs 'good people'. You're smart enough to know this.
 
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Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Manc Skipper said:
Being anti-fascist/nazi is A GOOD THING. They are not equivalent. Meeting nazis on their own violent terms is distasteful, but must be done, otherwise you are appeasing them.
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No it isn't when you are assaulting and destroying private property. yes the violence that both groups spread is equivalent.
Attacking people for not conforming to your view whether it is antifa or it is alt-right is equivalent.

SO if someone takes a bat and smashes your face in because you don't believe the way they think you should believe then you shouldn't have a complaint right?
they are morally justified in what they did? because that is exactly what you are advocating.

Reasoned society can live in a world where difference of opinions matter without assaulting people like alt-right and antifa.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Nilly said:
I literally just said that I don't condone violence from either side - so your very first sentence is absolute bunk.

As for the rest of it, again, you're the one that is putting nazi's and antifa on the same level. There are different levels of 'scum' and it's dishonest not to recognize that. Antifa is an ideology that combats fascism - and they count vandals amongst their members. Naziism/white supremacy is an ideology that advocates genocide, and they count dictators, torturers and mass murderers amongst theirs. One of these groups is many magnitudes worse than the other, and calling them both 'scum' actively ignores that nuance.

The world isn't black and white, 'scum' vs 'good people'. You're smart enough to know this.
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Not at all.
again you have the moral equivalence issue again.

I recognize antifa and alt-right for what they are. You can't be honest. that is not my issue that is your issue.
No antifa is a movement that doesn't fight fascism. they are a group of communists and anarchists.

They loot, destroy private property, and assault people that do not agree with what they think or say. what they are supposedly
fighting is exactly what they are doing. they are leftist fascists.

they are scum and no better than the alt-right. you just can't be honest about it because you agree with them politically.

i can recognize scum you can't. your partisan bias gets in the way.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
No it isn't when you are assaulting and destroying private property. yes the violence that both groups spread is equivalent.
Attacking people for not conforming to your view whether it is antifa or it is alt-right is equivalent.

SO if someone takes a bat and smashes your face in because you don't believe the way they think you should believe then you shouldn't have a complaint right?
they are morally justified in what they did? because that is exactly what you are advocating.

Reasoned society can live in a world where difference of opinions matter without assaulting people like alt-right and antifa.
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Nazis are anathema. There can be neither equvocation or tolerance of it.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

X Factor said:
Y'know, maybe it's not such a good idea to label people or groups terrorists simply because we dislike them, even if we have good reason to dislike them. The more any term is stretched, the less meaning it actually retains.
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How about naming them that because of their actions?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Yes_Minister said:
A member alt right murdered someone at that protest in Virginia, should the alt right be labeled a terrorist group?
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OK, using your methodology, if the driver was a member of a certain church, would we label that church a terrorist group?

Where is the evidence this guy did this to kill minorities or anybody his supposed group hates?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Angelus said:
Right there with you! As far as I know they might have broken windows or punched someone - no gas chambers or lynching. I keep asking for information and no one will post anything. Antifa is the strawman used by the right to take attention away from Nazis. KKK, and white nationalists.
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Why do people keep comparing what a certain group did 50 or 70 years ago to what another group is doing today?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Lovebug said:
Wouldn't it be better to show a heavy police presence, if need be, and arrest violent individuals during any protest? Even the protests i.e. in Baltimore started out relatively peacefully, and if we take the radicals out of the equation, the rest should remain fairly calm.
If they stay on sidewalks and don't destroy property, let them assemble, including antifa and whatever other groups have permission to protest.
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Police should be pro-active.

Anybody showing up to a rally with a mask on should be stopped and documented with a picture and his/her name.

That way if that person shows up later on video committing crimes, they can be identified.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Baralis said:
Unlike, I believe, many Americans I have been aware of Antifa for several years due to their violent behavior towards others, destruction of property, and hate filled message. I admit I was a little shocked and dismayed with the amount of support they seem to have both on this forum and nationally due to recent events evolving the KKK.

What I also see is a lot of hypocritical behavior and beliefs and a complete lack of objectivity mostly coming from the left when it comes to Antifa. In their hatred and anger toward the KKK (rightfully earned) they seem to be completely blind to what Antifa is and stands for. That or these people are more extreme/fringe than they care to admit.

Here is an example, When Trump condoned the KKK's actions the left and media made a huge point that Trump's language was not hash enough and as a result they suggested that he must support the KKK and White supremacist groups. Trump to my knowledge is not and has never been part of the KKK yet when Antifa's violent actions are pointed out the left claim that all groups will have some rouge violent elements. To my knowledge Antifa has never made public statement condoning their members violence. So on one hand not condoning harshly enough = support while on the other no condonement = meh rouge elements.
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When did that happen?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Cardinal said:
It will be important to take note that if the White House complies with the petition's request, then the Federal government under Trump will have officially decided that White Supremacist groups are not terrorist organizations and that groups that oppose them are.

Let that sink in.
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That doesn't need to sink in because it is not true.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Mason66 said:
That doesn't need to sink in because it is not true.
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How do you figure that?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Cardinal said:
How do you figure that?
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You tell me how deciding one group is something means they officially decided a completely different group is something else.

What does one decision have to do with the other?
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House response | Fox News

It states: “Terrorism is defined as ‘the use of violence and intimidation in pursuit of political aims’. This definition is the same definition used to declare ISIS and other groups, as terrorist organizations. AntiFa has earned this title due to its violent actions in multiple cities and their influence in the killings of multiple police officers throughout the United States. It is time for the pentagon to be consistent in its actions – and just as they rightfully declared ISIS a terror group, they must declare AntiFa a terror group – on the grounds of principle, integrity, morality, and safety.”

That was pretty quick. 160k names so far to declare antifa a terrorist organization.
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Been uncomfortable with this notion of the gov being able to just "declare" X group a terrorist org with all the options that entails for dealing with domestic/citizen orgs as if they were ISIS or AlQ.... this is a scary slippery slope to go down.

Don't get me wrong, I despise Antifa.... but they're not Al Queda, and perhaps more importantly, they're Americans.


If the Gov can arbitrarily declare X group of American citizens "terrorist", it can do it to you too.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Antifa are facing down the terrorists and being vilified by terror-supporting Trumpworld.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Goshin said:
Been uncomfortable with this notion of the gov being able to just "declare" X group a terrorist org with all the options that entails for dealing with domestic/citizen orgs as if they were ISIS or AlQ.... this is a scary slippery slope to go down.

Don't get me wrong, I despise Antifa.... but they're not Al Queda, and perhaps more importantly, they're Americans.


If the Gov can arbitrarily declare X group of American citizens "terrorist", it can do it to you too.
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I agree it is a fine line for the government to draw, however the government should enforce itself equally on both groups.
that their actions are not going to be tolerated. I would say the role of government in this is to protect the rights of every day
citizens. alt-right and antifa scum are just that and the government should treat them as any other group that requires such measures.

1 step comes when these groups pull this crap the FBI arrests their leaders for inciting a riot.
 
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Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Manc Skipper said:
Antifa are facing down the terrorists and being vilified by terror-supporting Trumpworld.
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Please tell us how looting and destroying businesses and attacking innocent bystanders is facing down terrorists?
i can't wait to see how you justify this one.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
I agree it is a fine line for the government to draw, however the government should enforce itself equally on both groups.
that their actions are not going to be tolerated.
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The problem I have is, tmk, there is no objective standard or real oversight of who gets declared terrorists....
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

Goshin said:
The problem I have is, tmk, there is no objective standard or real oversight of who gets declared terrorists....
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yep need to watch the terrorist label for sure.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
Please tell us how looting and destroying businesses and attacking innocent bystanders is facing down terrorists?
i can't wait to see how you justify this one.
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Tell us where you got these silly accusations.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

If terrorism is defined as the "use of violence and intimidation for political aims," that could cover everything from antifa violence to white supremacist violence to Hiroshima.

That aside, the reality is that leadership is key. I saw an antifa spokesguy interviewed recently and wished someone would have asked him what he hoped to accomplish by fighting with white nationalists in the street, that we have cops to deal with such things if they get violent, that this is not the Weimar Republic.

And as someone noted above, every non-violent movement has had to deal with fringe membership that wants to do violence. I even assume that there are some neo-Nazis who would be satisfied with simply parading and talking about the people they hate. But often the key is leadership: the antifa moron's comments I saw were consistent with Trump's "they used to take em out on a stretcher" comment, consistent with the militants in the 60s that told me we need to get guns, with the violence-suggesting Chicano activists that caused Cesar Chavez to go on one of his many fasts, with African-Americans that committed violence in some of MLK's disputes, etc. Followers of a cause act violently because of testosterone, their own individual pathologies, in response to violence done them, et al. But they also act in response to leadership or lack thereof. The leader, whether from the Oval Office or the website/ press releases of the group in question needs to set the tone or withdraw. Leaders of groups like the Nazis, antifa, and anarchists may not be morally equivalent, but they know what they are about when they fail to condemn violence. Trump may be clueless or arroganct or a sociopath, but he has presumably sane advisors that should insist that he respond clearly and immediately when issues like this arrive. He doesn't have that talent or he doesn't listen. Both should cause us worry.

Trump diminishes the office rather than letting it make him grow.
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
Not at all.
again you have the moral equivalence issue again.

I recognize antifa and alt-right for what they are. You can't be honest. that is not my issue that is your issue.
No antifa is a movement that doesn't fight fascism. they are a group of communists and anarchists.

They loot, destroy private property, and assault people that do not agree with what they think or say. what they are supposedly
fighting is exactly what they are doing. they are leftist fascists.

they are scum and no better than the alt-right. you just can't be honest about it because you agree with them politically.

i can recognize scum you can't. your partisan bias gets in the way.
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How do I have the moral equivalence issue when it is you that is calling them the same thing and I am calling them different things :screwy
 
Re: Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House re

ludin said:
Petition urging terror label for Antifa gets enough signatures for White House response | Fox News

It states: “Terrorism is defined as ‘the use of violence and intimidation in pursuit of political aims’. This definition is the same definition used to declare ISIS and other groups, as terrorist organizations. AntiFa has earned this title due to its violent actions in multiple cities and their influence in the killings of multiple police officers throughout the United States. It is time for the pentagon to be consistent in its actions – and just as they rightfully declared ISIS a terror group, they must declare AntiFa a terror group – on the grounds of principle, integrity, morality, and safety.”

That was pretty quick. 160k names so far to declare antifa a terrorist organization.
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JANFU said:
Would you consider that a good number of the 1600 or so far right militias also be classed as Terrorist?
https://www.splcenter.org/issues/hate-and-extremism
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Mason66 said:
What have the militias done to earn that name?

Existing is not enough.
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Asked the OP and no reply- So are you in favor on antifa listed as a terror group?
 
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