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As Venezuela Prepares to Vote, Some Fear an End to Democracy


Ever read the Constitution of the former USSR. Does not mean they were free.

C1936 Constitution of the USSR, Part IV

1977 Constitution of the USSR, Part I

1936 Constitution of the USSR, Part I

Article 33. Uniform federal citizenship is established for the USSR. Every citizen of a Union Republic is a citizen of the USSR.
The grounds and procedure for acquiring or forfeiting Soviet citizenship are defined by the Law on Citizenship of the USSR.
When abroad, citizens of the USSR enjoy the protection and assistance of the Soviet state.

Article 34. Citizens of the USSR are equal before the law, without distinction of origin, social or property status, race or nationality, sex, education, language, attitude to religion, type and nature of occupation, domicile, or other status.
The equal rights of citizens of the USSR are guaranteed in all fields of economic, political, social, and cultural life.

Article 35. Women and men have equal rights in the USSR.
Exercise of these rights is ensured by according women equal access with men to education and vocational and professional training, equal opportunities in employment, remuneration, and promotion, and in social and political, and cultural activity, and by special labour and health protection measures for women; by providing conditions enabling mothers to work; by legal protection, and material and moral support for mothers and children, including paid leaves and other benefits for expectant mothers and mothers, and gradual reduction of working time for mothers with small children.

Article 36. Citizens of the USSR of different races and nationalities have equal rights.
Exercise of these rights is ensured by a policy of all-round development and drawing together of all the nations and nationalities of the USSR, by educating citizens in the spirit of Soviet patriotism and socialist internationalism, and by the possibility to use their native language and the languages of other peoples in the USSR.
Any direct or indirect limitation of the rights of citizens or establishment of direct or indirect privileges on grounds of race or nationality, and any advocacy of racial or national exclusiveness, hostility, or contempt, are punishable by law.

Article 37. Citizens of other countries and stateless persons in the USSR are guaranteed the rights and freedoms provided by law, including the right to apply to a court and other state bodies for the protection of their personal, property, family, and other rights.
 
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Trumps's wrong about a lot of things my friend, but he had nothing to do with Venezuela.

I know he has nothing to do with it. But if we're going down the road of "this is because of Democrats" it makes sense to wonder what Republicans have planned for the situation.
 
I know he has nothing to do with it. But if we're going down the road of "this is because of Democrats" it makes sense to wonder what Republicans have planned for the situation.

You can go down that road while I just stand here, if it's all the same to you
 
But it is a real time look into what some of the ideas that some even here in office on the far left would do to a country.

"Would do." A fear of the imagined. As opposed to what the current president is doing right now.
 
The Venezuelan people sort of made their own bed when they elected a Castro "wanne be" some years ago.
 
Ummm, I hate to break it to 'em, but they lost their democracy a long time ago.

Unfortunatly, the problem for Venezuela is in fact Democracy! The best example of when democracy fails is best seen in
South Africa. Venezuela is similar to South Africa, ruled by a white minority for years & years until democracy took hold &
one man one vote bought Chavez into power 'with the awakening political conscienceness of the browned skinned
pardos who make up 80% of the population', look what's happening there now!

Nicolás Maduro who has none of the charisma of Chavez is hoping he still has enough support to lead Venezuela into a
dark whole. A one man rule like Mugabe in Zimbabwe may follow & we'll have to say good ridance to Venezuela.
 
They did. And it's slipping farther away. I'm sure Trump has a great plan. Tremendous. Bigly.

I'm sure he'll get right on it after he releases his fantastic health pkan, destroys ISIS in 30 days, and removes Russia from the Crimean peninsula.

Trump never even contemplated removing Russia from the Crimea!!!! Some Trump haters do make a lot of sense but many like you
spew whopping distortions like this Crimea nonsense that you automatically remove yourselves from competition for the
Mt. Rushmore of Trump haters in this forum.
 
Venezuela is on the brink of becoming a full-fledged authoritarian regime. Once a nation goes there, whether it's a right-wing or left-wing authoritarian state doesn't really matter.

On the brink? It passed that point long ago.
 
On the brink? It passed that point long ago.

Oh I think the worst is yet to come. Up to this point it's just been authoritarian-lite by comparison.
 
Trump never even contemplated removing Russia from the Crimea!!!! Some Trump haters do make a lot of sense but many like you
spew whopping distortions like this Crimea nonsense that you automatically remove yourselves from competition for the
Mt. Rushmore of Trump haters in this forum.

Well, gee...I was told here that stupid Obama didn't do anything about, so I just assumed that Trump, being so awesome, had a great plan for it. Are you saying that he's going to let this blunder by stupid Obama stand?
 
Power corrupts, and it never seems to be enough.

Which is the reason why conservatives want to limit the size and scope of government.
 
We have a real time witness to how Socialism ends freedom in a country....How anyone can look at what has happened to Venezuela since the institution of more and more socialist policy, and rule, and how it has drifted toward authoritarian rule, as most Socialist countries track to, and say that Venezuela has prospered from this change in their government is beyond me....Thoughts.

It may sound cynical, but what democracy? That has long ago fallen in the wheels of pseudo dictatorship with a good dose of socialistic bravado to fool the poor and the hungry to vote for Maduro and his predecessor.
 
We have a real time witness to how Socialism ends freedom in a country....
Venezuela's flaws have pretty much nothing to do with socialism.

Venezuela's problems have two very different sources. The first was that Chavez was a populist authoritarian, who turned a halfway decent (albeit unequal) economy into a corrupt system.

The second issue, linked to the first, is that Venezuela was heavily dependent oil exports. Although Chavez made some steps to diversify the economy, this was thwarted by his own corrupt tendencies, and lack of accountability.

When oil prices nose-dived, Venezuela's economy went down the tubes. Chavez had the personal magnetism to keep it together, more or less. When he died, Maduro took over, and combined the corruption and autocracy with total ineptitude.

It wouldn't have mattered if Venezuela was socialist, Marxist, Communist, capitalist, or any economic system. It was screwed no matter what.

In contrast, Bolivia is a land-locked socialist state, which has done reasonably well for itself, and is certainly not headed for the same type of collapse.

Anyone who thinks capitalism is an inoculation for autocracy hasn't been paying attention *cough* CHINA *cough* Singapore *cough cough* Russia, Italy Pre-WWII, Franco's Spain *cough*
 
Well, gee...I was told here that stupid Obama didn't do anything about, so I just assumed that Trump, being so awesome, had a great plan for it. Are you saying that he's going to let this blunder by stupid Obama stand?

Trump can not put the genie back in the bottle after BO's efferts to destablize Ukraine backfired he isn't a miracle worker.

Obama's Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs was Victoria Nuland.

'The self-annointed "Queen of Ukraine" who was tasked with the destabilization of Ukraine spending billions of US $$$$
to do so and pick who should be it's leader even prior to the coup. Nuland, thought it would be an easy victory saw her
plans go awry when the people of Crimea chose to leave Ukraine and join Russia and the Southeastern Ukrainians chose
to fight rather than accept her puppet government.'

Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s “regime change” in early 2014 without
weighing the likely chaos and consequences. it’s hard to see how anyone can clean up the mess that Nuland made,

'What the coup also did was revive long pent-up antagonisms between the ethnic Ukrainians in the west, including
elements that had supported Adolf Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union during World War Two, and ethnic Russians
in the south and east who feared the anti-Russian sentiments emanating from Kiev.
Almost immediately after ultra right wing Ukranian Nationalist overthrewYanukovich the entire
Ukraine navy had “defected” in the Crimea region, pledging allegiance to its unrecognised pro-Russian leader
and surrendering the country's Sevastopol headquarters.'

She still hasn't recovered after Putin slapped
her on the face with Crimea changing hands quicker that one can say peninsula.
Something she never thoughther silliness would lead to.

With Nuland being involved it is never a bad idea to be pessimistic about Ukraine. So the Obama administration
single handedly split Ukraine in two using an undiplomatic diplomat as the point person.

As for Trump he did state that his immediate predecessor’s Russia policy resulted in
Russian’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014.
Obama administration issued a host of largely empty threats, warning that there
would be “costs for any military intervention in Ukraine” and that
there was a “huge price to pay” if Russia pushed into Crimea.

Obama's policy completely backfired Ukraine being torn apart because of it. The die is cast Crimea
will never return to Ukraine & it's more than likely the Southeastern provinces will not either.

Nuland left the State Department in January 2017, in the earlier days of the Trump administration
knowing her days were numbered. That's a plus
 
Trump can not put the genie back in the bottle after BO's efferts to destablize Ukraine backfired he isn't a miracle worker.

Obama's Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs was Victoria Nuland.

'The self-annointed "Queen of Ukraine" who was tasked with the destabilization of Ukraine spending billions of US $$$$
to do so and pick who should be it's leader even prior to the coup. Nuland, thought it would be an easy victory saw her
plans go awry when the people of Crimea chose to leave Ukraine and join Russia and the Southeastern Ukrainians chose
to fight rather than accept her puppet government.'

Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s “regime change” in early 2014 without
weighing the likely chaos and consequences. it’s hard to see how anyone can clean up the mess that Nuland made,

'What the coup also did was revive long pent-up antagonisms between the ethnic Ukrainians in the west, including
elements that had supported Adolf Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union during World War Two, and ethnic Russians
in the south and east who feared the anti-Russian sentiments emanating from Kiev.
Almost immediately after ultra right wing Ukranian Nationalist overthrewYanukovich the entire
Ukraine navy had “defected” in the Crimea region, pledging allegiance to its unrecognised pro-Russian leader
and surrendering the country's Sevastopol headquarters.'

She still hasn't recovered after Putin slapped
her on the face with Crimea changing hands quicker that one can say peninsula.
Something she never thoughther silliness would lead to.

With Nuland being involved it is never a bad idea to be pessimistic about Ukraine. So the Obama administration
single handedly split Ukraine in two using an undiplomatic diplomat as the point person.

As for Trump he did state that his immediate predecessor’s Russia policy resulted in
Russian’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014.
Obama administration issued a host of largely empty threats, warning that there
would be “costs for any military intervention in Ukraine” and that
there was a “huge price to pay” if Russia pushed into Crimea.

Obama's policy completely backfired Ukraine being torn apart because of it. The die is cast Crimea
will never return to Ukraine & it's more than likely the Southeastern provinces will not either.

Nuland left the State Department in January 2017, in the earlier days of the Trump administration
knowing her days were numbered. That's a plus

Do you mean Trump can't fix it?

Actually leaving things as they are might be best anyway. Ukraine will never function as a Democracy with those regions included.
 
Do you mean Trump can't fix it?

Actually leaving things as they are might be best anyway. Ukraine will never function as a Democracy with those regions included.

Trump has a better chance of preventing forest fires & hurricanes than fixing the mess he was left with. Better yet,
if you know your history it's unlikely the likes of Prince Metternich or even Tallyrand would be up to that task.
Obama's tendency to leave Eastern European affairs in the hands of Nuland & follow the lead of Susan Rice
& Mrs. Clinton leading to another almost equally significant blunder Libya are disasters that few can remedy.

You are correct about Ukraine being more united without the southeastern provinces & Crimea but consider
Kharkiv & Odessa also voted heavily for Yanakovich in the last legitimate united Ukraine election, those critical areas
are not entirely on board with the powers in Kiev & Lviv either., far from it!
 
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Trump has a better chthatance of preventing forest fires & hurricanes tah fixing the mess he was left with. Better yet,
if you now your history it's unlikely the likes of Prince Metternich or even Tallyrand would be up to that task.
Obama's tendency to leave Eastern European affairs in the hands of Nuland & follow the lead of Susan Rice
& Mrs. Clinton leading to another almost equally significant blunder Libya are disasters that few can remedy.

You are correct about Ukraine being more united without the southeastern provinces & Crimea but consider
Kharkiv & Odessa also voted heavily in the last legitimate united Ukraine election, those critical areas
are not entirely on board with the powers in Kiev & Lviv either., far from it!

I thought Trump was awesome though. You aren't admitting that He is not all-powerful are you? RINO!
 
I thought Trump was awesome though. You aren't admitting that He is not all-powerful are you? RINO!

You are right, Trump is awesome as you acknowledged. Trump is a unique type, someone who
can walk through a labyrinth and not get lost, maneuver through intricate combinations of
torturous paths & passages & successfully find his way to the exit like few can.

But even Trump has his limits & can't fix the mess in Ukraine. BTW most people don't expect him to.
 
So they say... funny it never seem to happen. Their government is just as big as liberal government, just different priorities.

Talk is cheap.

Well sure, we can only vote for people that SAY they want small government. Whether they actually do it or not is a crap shoot, and the closer they get to the controls the less willing they are to relinquish control. But what would you suggest as an alternative, vote for unabashed big-government, power-hungry Democrats whose goal is specifically to grow government power over the population? Not really an option for a conservative.
 
Trump is a unique type, someone who
can walk through a labyrinth and not get lost, maneuver through intricate combinations of
torturous paths & passages & successfully find his way to the exit like few can.


He is taking his time finding "the exit!"
 
Well sure, we can only vote for people that SAY they want small government. Whether they actually do it or not is a crap shoot, and the closer they get to the controls the less willing they are to relinquish control. But what would you suggest as an alternative, vote for unabashed big-government, power-hungry Democrats whose goal is specifically to grow government power over the population? Not really an option for a conservative.
I would suggest voting out those who do not deliver. I've long said that if the Congressional re-election rates were reduced from 90-ish% to 50%... enough so they know their election is not virtually guaranteed... that Congress' attitude would change in a heartbeat. As it is right now they take the voters for granted because they know that no matter how much we piss and moan we're not going to actually do anything about it.

Example: The Rep Party still claims to be the party of fiscal responsibility, and people still buy that and eat it up, but in reality the Rep Party and Reps in general abandoned that concept a couple decades ago. Fact is that Reps spend as much as Dems, they just spend it in different areas that their constituents approve of, and they put it on a "credit card".
 
We have a real time witness to how Socialism ends freedom in a country....How anyone can look at what has happened to Venezuela since the institution of more and more socialist policy, and rule, and how it has drifted toward authoritarian rule, as most Socialist countries track to, and say that Venezuela has prospered from this change in their government is beyond me....Thoughts.
Capitalism and Socialism are economic models. Democracy and Dictatorship are political models.

One can have dictatorship in either Socialist or Capitalist countries. One can have democracy in either Socialist or Capitalist countries. The USSR was a Socialist dictatorship and now is a Capitalist dictatorship.

There are few real examples of either full Socialism or full capitalism. Most nations are mixed economies with varying degrees of freedom.
 
I would suggest voting out those who do not deliver. I've long said that if the Congressional re-election rates were reduced from 90-ish% to 50%... enough so they know their election is not virtually guaranteed... that Congress' attitude would change in a heartbeat. As it is right now they take the voters for granted because they know that no matter how much we piss and moan we're not going to actually do anything about it.

Example: The Rep Party still claims to be the party of fiscal responsibility, and people still buy that and eat it up, but in reality the Rep Party and Reps in general abandoned that concept a couple decades ago. Fact is that Reps spend as much as Dems, they just spend it in different areas that their constituents approve of, and they put it on a "credit card".


Again, putting more Democrats in congress who would happily grow the size of government is not an option. The only option for now is maintaining the bottleneck and hoping the Constitutional limits and separation of powers will stymie future power grabs while working at the state level to grow conservative representation there. Throwing elections to spite Republicans is bad advice that no conservative should follow.

The real conservative power, as it has expanded, rests in the courts and the Constitution. Maybe some day we can manage a convention of the states that would allow state legislatures to put some stronger government limitations in writing, until then the best fight conservatives have is in the courts, and that dies with a string of Democrat administrations and Congresses.

If there were to be any fight to have in the Republican party it should be in the primaries, not the general election.
 
Capitalism and Socialism are economic models. Democracy and Dictatorship are political models.

One can have dictatorship in either Socialist or Capitalist countries. One can have democracy in either Socialist or Capitalist countries. The USSR was a Socialist dictatorship and now is a Capitalist dictatorship.

There are few real examples of either full Socialism or full capitalism. Most nations are mixed economies with varying degrees of freedom.

No really, capitalism is the free exchange of goods and services by the private citizen which is not compatible with a dictatorship which seeks state control of everything.
 
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