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Professor who said Otto Warmbier got ‘what he deserved’ loses job

Maybe NK thinks of it's Illegals they same way Americans do?
 
Absentglare said:
Milo had free speech and was protested for it.

You again prove you don't know what you are talking about.
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also this doesn't address anything I said why can't you stick to the topic?
ol yea because your point was destroyed.

this professor got to say what she wanted to say.
it was out of bounds out of line and as in most businesses she got fired for it.
 
radcen said:
That's a valid point, but it also exposes her mindset. As I read it, she wasn't technically fired, but rather they work on contracts and she will only not be renewed in the future. To balance your point out, a school does have the right to not hire people that consider some of their students to be unfit based on arbitrary criteria.
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Whether the university technically fired her or not, it seems pretty clear the decision not to renew her contract was based entirely on what she said. I did not see where she said she considered any of her students unfit to attend the university. She was criticizing what she considered their arrogant, blase attitude toward education, and I don't doubt but that some of her students take just that attitude.
 
ludin said:
there were other people in the group.
who is to blame for putting him in a coma? NK is to blame.
he was perfectly healthy before their police got a hold of him.
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and so was Philando Castile but then in America authorities are held to a higher standard; well, they are supposed to be held to a higher standard

you should go visit North Korea & be sure to let us know how that works out for you
 
Can we all now agree that the University is deeply broken?

By that I mean all of them.

As an institution.
 
matchlight said:
Whether the university technically fired her or not, it seems pretty clear the decision not to renew her contract was based entirely on what she said. I did not see where she said she considered any of her students unfit to attend the university. She was criticizing what she considered their arrogant, blase attitude toward education, and I don't doubt but that some of her students take just that attitude.
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I didn't say or imply "unfit to attend". She obviously thinks of some of her students disparagingly based on superficial factors, and that's not a proper attitude for an instructor.
 
ludin said:
also this doesn't address anything I said why can't you stick to the topic?
ol yea because your point was destroyed.

this professor got to say what she wanted to say.
it was out of bounds out of line and as in most businesses she got fired for it.
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There you said it...the University is dead, all that remains is a business.
 
prometeus said:
What you and many other people miss is the simple reality that NK is what it is and no amount of criticism from any of us or even much more influential people will change it. In this situation calling them animals, which by any civilized standards they are, has about the same effect as calling a lion an animal for mauling someone. That is what animals do and that places the onus on rational people to avoid them. It is the only solution available to avoid a tragedy.
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All of that is true. Still doesn't justify the punishment as being "deserved". Deserved as in appropriate.
 
Dragonfly said:
The "state" punished nobody.

She was an adjunct professor at the University Of Delaware.

The college has decided to not renew her contract.

From UofD:
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Are you claiming that a decision by officials of the University of Delaware about hiring a faculty member is not action by the state of Delaware, for Fourteenth Amendment purposes? If so, I wonder which of the Supreme Court's decisions on state action and the Fourteenth Amendment you are making the basis for that claim. I think that line of decisions makes clear that this was a state action. And if it was, the First Amendment guarantee of the freedom of speech applies to that action through the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause.

The fact she was not technically working for the university when it made this decision raises a more interesting question. This was obviously retaliation based on the content of this woman's off-campus speech. It took the form not of firing her, though, bur rather of declining to re-hire her. I don't think that makes it any less an abridgment of her freedom of speech by the state of Delaware.
 
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matchlight said:
This seems to be yet another case of a state punishing a person for expressing an opinion away from campus. The freedom of speech has applied against states through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment since the 1920's. Delaware may well have violated this woman's freedom of speech, because it seems to have retaliated against her based solely on the content of her speech. I think what she said is vile, but what I or anyone else thinks of it is irrelevant to her right to say it.
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I applaud your consistency. Very well done, matchlight.
 
ludin said:
also this doesn't address anything I said why can't you stick to the topic?
ol yea because your point was destroyed.

this professor got to say what she wanted to say.
it was out of bounds out of line and as in most businesses she got fired for it.
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I think you're missing the distinction between "freedom of speech" and "freedom from consequences".
 
radcen said:
All of that is true. Still doesn't justify the punishment as being "deserved". Deserved as in appropriate.
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True and nowhere on this subject have I said that anything justified such atrocity or that it was deserved or appropriate. But it was preventable.
 
cuban smokes said:
and so was Philando Castile but then in America authorities are held to a higher standard; well, they are supposed to be held to a higher standard

you should go visit North Korea & be sure to let us know how that works out for you
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we are not talking about castile are we. no we are not. it is irrelevant to this discussion but I know why you bring it up because you can't
support your last comment so you have to red herring.

as for your last statement wow just wow.
I have no reason to go there.

other people wish to visit. like all things you should know the rules of the country you are going to.
 
ludin said:
we are not talking about castile are we. no we are not. it is irrelevant to this discussion but I know why you bring it up because you can't
support your last comment so you have to red herring.

as for your last statement wow just wow.
I have no reason to go there.

other people wish to visit. like all things you should know the rules of the country you are going to.
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no red herring here buddy; I stand by every statement I have made in this thread

Otto died because he made a bad choice; his choice

like I said, go visit, tell us how that works out for you ............
 
matchlight said:
Are you claiming that a decision by officials of the University of Delaware about hiring a faculty member is not action by the state of Delaware, for Fourteenth Amendment purposes? If so, I wonder which of the Supreme Court's decisions on state action and the Fourteenth Amendment you are making the basis for that claim. I think that line of decisions makes clear that this was a state action. And if it was, the First Amendment guarantee of the freedom of speech applies to that action through the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause.
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What makes you think that as an employee, you have the right to say anything you want, at any time, and not potentially suffer some consequences?

If your employer discovers that you're badmouthing the company online, they can and should fire you.

http://corporate.findlaw.com/law-library/freedom-of-speech-in-the-workplace-the-first-amendment-revisited.html

Also, Delaware is an "employment at will" state:
In Delaware, as in other states, employees work at will. This means an employee can generally be fired at any time and for any reason, or for no reason at all.
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But hey....if her "right to free speech" has been infringed I'm sure a lawyer somewhere will snatch that case up and try to make a ca-gillion dollars off it.

Guess we'll see.
 
cuban smokes said:
Otto took his own life for granted, visited a place that 99 % of Americans would never visit, and Otto paid for his bad decision with his life.

now, who is to blame for that? Otto is .......
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Sure he is to blame for his bad decision, doesn't mean he "deserved" it.
 
radcen said:
I didn't say or imply "unfit to attend". She obviously thinks of some of her students disparagingly based on superficial factors, and that's not a proper attitude for an instructor.
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Since when? A law school professor I worked for one summer as a research assistant used to have, when we chatted, quite a few uncomplimentary things to say about some of the students that were admitted. Another professor I knew slightly once complained to me about being pressured by the dean of the law school to admit quotas of certain minority applicants, even when they were clearly not qualified. And I can think of other times, during chats with professors, when they made some pretty cutting remarks about their students. As long as no one is named, I can't see anything wrong with that.
 
Winchester said:
Sure he is to blame for his bad decision, doesn't mean he "deserved" it.
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never said Otto deserved what he got from his bad choice

however I did say the bigger majority of what the professor stated in the article is true

white American (I'm white) youth do have a certain level of arrogance that can lead to some feeling they are invincible

possibly Otto had some of that within himself; dunno ...........
 
matchlight said:
Are you claiming that a decision by officials of the University of Delaware about hiring a faculty member is not action by the state of Delaware, for Fourteenth Amendment purposes? If so, I wonder which of the Supreme Court's decisions on state action and the Fourteenth Amendment you are making the basis for that claim. I think that line of decisions makes clear that this was a state action. And if it was, the First Amendment guarantee of the freedom of speech applies to that action through the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause.

The fact she was not technically working for the university when it made this decision raises a more interesting question. This was obviously retaliation based on the content of this woman's off-campus speech. It took the form not of firing her, though, bur rather of declining to re-hire her. I don't think that makes it any less an abridgment of her freedom of speech by the state of Delaware.
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Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from any and all consequences of that speech. There is no right to continued public employment so what do you allege was taken from this person by the state?
 
There are plenty of lazy scumbag cheating students.
 
Dragonfly said:
What makes you think that as an employee, you have the right to say anything you want, at any time, and not potentially suffer some consequences?

If your employer discovers that you're badmouthing the company online, they can and should fire you.

Freedom Of Speech In The Workplace: The First Amendment Revisited - FindLaw

Also, Delaware is an "employment at will" state:
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You seem to be unaware of the difference between the ability of private and government employers to restrict speech by their employees. The First Amendment's guarantee of the freedom of speech does not apply to actions by private employers. It certainly does apply to actions by government employers.


But hey....if her "right to free speech" has been infringed I'm sure a lawyer somewhere will snatch that case up and try to make a ca-gillion dollars off it.

Guess we'll see.
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Maybe we will. You don't seem to have much time for the freedom of speech, but luckily there are quite a few public law firms with excellent lawyers who are passionate about defending it. They often take cases like this without charge, partly because of their personal convictions, and partly because it is a form of advertising for their firms.
 
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matchlight said:
Since when? A law school professor I worked for one summer as a research assistant used to have, when we chatted, quite a few uncomplimentary things to say about some of the students that were admitted. Another professor I knew slightly once complained to me about being pressured by the dean of the law school to admit quotas of certain minority applicants, even when they were clearly not qualified. And I can think of other times, during chats with professors, when they made some pretty cutting remarks about their students. As long as no one is named, I can't see anything wrong with that.
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Individual students based on their individual attitudes and actions, or entire groups with a broad brush? The difference is important.

Quotas are a different animal and a different topic.

And in this case she was taking about a specific student, as well as a group overall, so it would seem you would find her non-renewal justified based on your last sentence.
 
Absentglare said:
Cue the right wingers crying about how there's no free speech on campus.

Oh wait, that's right, they only care about speech they agree with.
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She was an employee. Now she's not.

She can enroll and say all the stupid **** she wants as a student.
 
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