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CBS: Carrier workers facing layoffs feel betrayed by Trump

Objective Voice said:
I think we agree on all three points. However, I think more has been done to prevent the Average Joe from obtaining that "living wage" and, thus, have the ability to "support yourself" over the last 35-40 years. We're talking everything from tax policies to outsourcing to union busting to the elimination of collective bargaining. Taking all of this into account, one has to realize that NAFTA isn't ground zero for the Average Joe's inability to obtain a living wage and pull himself up by his boot straps. Government has hurt the Blue Collar worker far more than it has helped enrich White Collar workers. Those ladders of opportunity just aren't there for the little guy as they use to be. I know it's easy when you have a comfortable lifestyle and ends are meeting to say people should do this or that to improve their own condition, but the truth is that's not easy to do when very few such opportunities present themselves to some people who live in object poverty. It's not an excuse; it's just fact.

But I do like your arguments and the rational you bring. Please do continue. :2wave:
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We have just begun when it comes to helping the hard working citizen of this country. The thing I like about Trump is he went to the top people of Carrier and tried to keep jobs here. Where was our President? Whether he succeeds or not is yet to be seen but he tried. What does our media do but ridicule him for trying. Talk about a bunch of anti American A-holes.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
We have just begun when it comes to helping the hard working citizen of this country. The thing I like about Trump is he went to the top people of Carrier and tried to keep jobs here. Where was our President? Whether he succeeds or not is yet to be seen but he tried. What does our media do but ridicule him for trying. Talk about a bunch of anti American A-holes.
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I see that alittle differently.

Folks talk about government staying out of the private sector and letting free enterprise and the free market do what it do. Frankly, I saw this as Trump meddling in the affairs of free enterprise...noble as others may perceive it. If he wanted to help keep jobs here, the best thing he could have done was gather the captains of industry together and held a (series of) round-table discussions with them, not cheery-pick which companies he'd go to just to win brownie points in the media ahead of his inauguration.

Fact is, the President/CEO's of Carrier, Apple, Ford, etc....they're all going to do what's in their respective company's best interest for the sake of their shareholders and profits. So, unless government (President Trump) has a bag of tax incentives for them to stay, they'll do what they must (within the framework of their well established long-range plans) to remain profitable and competitive. And nothing the POTUS says is apt to change that.

I get that people saw his actions as a fight for the little guy to keep jobs in America, but as things go it doesn't appear to be working in his favor. Why? Because these companies are going to do what's in their own best interest, not what the POTUS all but commands (or threatens) them to do.
 
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Objective Voice said:
Please, stop trying to give credit to President Trump where credit is NOT due.

Any present-day gains in the economy cannot be attributed to President Trump since NO BUDGET or TAX POLICY has been passed since his inauguration. You've all but said it yourself: the economy has begun to thrive moreso from the Obama economic policies of which President Trump is now reaping the benefits.

So, please stop the madness already. It's really gotten tiring.
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I have given total credit to Obama for giving us Trump!! It really isn't surprising how poorly informed the left is today as they buy rhetoric and ignore results. The Obama legacy is there for all to see, loss of the House in 2010-2012 and the entire Congress in 2014-2016 leaving us with a 19.9 trillion dollar debt, 1.6% GDP growth, and 9.4% U-6. Yes, actual results are ignored because you like what Obama told you. BEA.gov, BLS.gov, and Treasury provide actual data, suggest you learn to use them
 
Objective Voice said:
I see that alittle differently.

Folks talk about government staying out of the private sector and letting free enterprise and the free market do what it do. Frankly, I saw this as Trump meddling in the affairs of free enterprise...noble as others may perceive it. If he wanted to help keep jobs here, the best thing he could have done was gather the captains of industry together and held a (series of) round-table discussions with them, not cheery-pick which companies he'd go to just to win brownie points in the media ahead of his inauguration.

Fact is, the President/CEO's of Carrier, Apple, Ford, etc....they're all going to do what's in their respective company's best interest for the sake of their shareholders and profits. So, unless government (President Trump) has a bag of tax incentives for them to stay, they'll do what they must (within the framework of their well established long-range plans) to remain profitable and competitive. And nothing the POTUS says is apt to change that.

I get that people saw his actions as a fight for the little guy to keep jobs in America, but as things go it doesn't appear to be working in his favor. Why? Because these companies are going to do what's in their own best interest, not what the POTUS all but commands (or threatens) them to do.
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The problem is the government is already meddling in the private sector with taxes and laws so that is a weak argument. I think Trump going to talk to the head man and finding out what can be done as far as government is concerned to keep good paying jobs here is part of a responsible governments obligation. He is representing the people. Especially since a lot of the reasons they are leaving are a direct result of government taxes, laws, and meddling in the private sector.
 
radcen said:
Anything a President does opens him up to criticism from all fronts.
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Absolutely. But I think in this case, Clinton was going against the will of the people (pretty sure NAFTA was largely unpopular then, as well) and wanted to make the corporate elite happy. Anyways, the main point I was trying to make to the other poster was that this was not simply a decision that Democrats were solely to blame.
 
danarhea said:
Actually, the first big drop happened right after Bush took office, but is attributed to Bill Clinton's policies.
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Yes... that is what I said. But the numbers don't support the belief that it was the implementation of NAFTA that caused it. So what did Clinton do that caused the drastic increase in outsourcing?
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Another casualty by Clintons NAFTA.
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That is fantasy to proclaim in a free society that production would not migrate to the lowest cost country. There are not enough tarrifs in the world to make US labor cheaper than Mexico, China, etc.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
The problem is the government is already meddling in the private sector with taxes and laws so that is a weak argument. I think Trump going to talk to the head man and finding out what can be done as far as government is concerned to keep good paying jobs here is part of a responsible governments obligation. He is representing the people. Especially since a lot of the reasons they are leaving are a direct result of government taxes, laws, and meddling in the private sector.
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Except, they left anyway.
 
The Mark said:
Except, they left anyway.
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Unfortunately the labor intense part of manufacturing will move to Mexico because NAFTA still is on the books. Bush and Clinton sold us this terrible deal with the promise that wages in Mexico would come up to our level. The truth is the rich and powerful have no intention of raising labor rates in Mexico. The Truth was NAFTA was pushed through to allow the Rich and powerful to exploit the poor people of Mexico while forcing labor rates down in this country as well as destroying the unions. Trump is trying to fix the problem by renegotiating NAFTA to stop this from happening. But until then NAFTA will continue to move good paying jobs from this country to Mexico.

All your attempts to twist the truth that it was Bush and Clinton that are responsible for the labor intense factories that have and are still moving to Mexico onto Trump is nothing but a lie. Trump is trying to keep jobs here. NAFTA is promoting the moving of labor intense factories to Mexico. Those are the facts.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Unfortunately the labor intense part of manufacturing will move to Mexico because NAFTA still is on the books. Bush and Clinton sold us this terrible deal with the promise that wages in Mexico would come up to our level. The truth is the rich and powerful have no intention of raising labor rates in Mexico. The Truth was NAFTA was pushed through to allow the Rich and powerful to exploit the poor people of Mexico while forcing labor rates down in this country as well as destroying the unions. Trump is trying to fix the problem by renegotiating NAFTA to stop this from happening. But until then NAFTA will continue to move good paying jobs from this country to Mexico.

All your attempts to twist the truth that it was Bush and Clinton that are responsible for the labor intense factories that have and are still moving to Mexico onto Trump is nothing but a lie. Trump is trying to keep jobs here. NAFTA is promoting the moving of labor intense factories to Mexico. Those are the facts.
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What? I'm not blaming Trump for the jobs moving, that's silly. It's definitely all the presidents going back to Clinton or even earlier that are to blame, if any president is. But I think it's more a systemic issue than the individual policies of various presidencies - although their policies were probably shaped in part by the influence of corporations.

The most I could blame Trump for here was giving Carrier whatever he did and not holding them to keeping jobs in-country.
 
The Mark said:
What? I'm not blaming Trump for the jobs moving, that's silly. It's definitely all the presidents going back to Clinton or even earlier that are to blame, if any president is. But I think it's more a systemic issue than the individual policies of various presidencies - although their policies were probably shaped in part by the influence of corporations.

The most I could blame Trump for here was giving Carrier whatever he did and not holding them to keeping jobs in-country.
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Read my post 124. Trump is working hard to keep as many jobs as possible here despite all the lies from our corrupt media and the left.

Here is the link. Read the truth.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...traight-regarding-carrier-jobs-300480755.html
 
Every time Orange Boy Trump offers up a statistic you know it comes straight out from his 71 yr. old fat ass.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Read my post 124. Trump is working hard to keep as many jobs as possible here despite all the lies from our corrupt media and the left.

Here is the link. Read the truth.

United Technologies Corporation Statement - Setting the Record Straight Regarding Carrier Jobs
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That's literally a press release from Carrier's parent company.

They are thus not an unbiased source of information. Although it likely is not false, they probably spun things into the best light possible.
They basically said:
'Yes we are keeping the 1100 jobs we talked to Trump about. We're also going to be eliminating 600 jobs in another part of the same plant, but those people get offered jobs in other areas of the company, and get 4 years of education under a program we have (they don't detail the limits of that, if any - I assume they don't pay for ANY 4 years of education, that'd be silly). Also, we have plans to hire 25,000 new people, 5,000 of which are new jobs in our organization.'
 
The Mark said:
That's literally a press release from Carrier's parent company.

They are thus not an unbiased source of information. Although it likely is not false, they probably spun things into the best light possible.
They basically said:
'Yes we are keeping the 1100 jobs we talked to Trump about. We're also going to be eliminating 600 jobs in another part of the same plant, but those people get offered jobs in other areas of the company, and get 4 years of education under a program we have (they don't detail the limits of that, if any - I assume they don't pay for ANY 4 years of education, that'd be silly). Also, we have plans to hire 25,000 new people, 5,000 of which are new jobs in our organization.'
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It is a first hand account that backs up Trump when he said he went to Carrier in an attempt to save jobs. All he can do is try. That is a hell of lot more than Obama did.

The bottom line is the workers at Carrier were betrayed by the Bush's and the Clinton's not Trump. The Bush's and the Clinton's are the ones who passed the laws that promote companies closing their doors here in USA and moving to cheaper labor in Mexico. Trump is the person trying to stop the carnage created by our previous presidents. Of course our lying propaganda press is doing everything it can to make it look as if Trump caused these jobs to leave. That is what I am trying to point out.
 
MTAtech said:
In my opinion, Trump played two cards 1) he told desperate people what they wanted to hear, and; 2) Fear.

Trump told desperate coal miners that he'll bring their jobs back, contrary to what the market forces were telling experts in the field. Those workers didn't want to hear what HRC was telling them, that those jobs are gone for good and she'd help them retrain for future types of jobs. Trump painted the worker's enemy as the foreigners, when those workers are losing their jobs to automation, not Mexico.

On fear, Trump repeatedly claimed that crime is the worst it has ever been, when crime is really at a low.

Now that the guy is in office, he's moving ahead with taking their healthcare away, taking training programs away, etc.

Now, if those people want to stick with Trump, the way a battered wife sticks to her abuser, that's all on them.
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Thank you- well said.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
It is a first hand account that backs up Trump when he said he went to Carrier in an attempt to save jobs. All he can do is try. That is a hell of lot more than Obama did.

The bottom line is the workers at Carrier were betrayed by the Bush's and the Clinton's not Trump. The Bush's and the Clinton's are the ones who passed the laws that promote companies closing their doors here in USA and moving to cheaper labor in Mexico. Trump is the person trying to stop the carnage created by our previous presidents. Of course our lying propaganda press is doing everything it can to make it look as if Trump caused these jobs to leave. That is what I am trying to point out.
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Uh...it's a press release from whoever handles public relations for that company UTC. the title of the link is literally "United Technology Corporation Statement".

It's definitely not a "first hand account".
 
The Mark said:
Uh...it's a press release from whoever handles public relations for that company UTC. the title of the link is literally "United Technology Corporation Statement".

It's definitely not a "first hand account".
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What is your definition of a first hand account?

Information given by the people who were actually there is mine.

Trump and UTC are the ones who had the meeting. To me they are the first hand account. We have Trumps version who cannot be refuted as a first hand account. We now have the companies/corporations first hand account given by public relations who is the mouth piece of the company/corporation. They confirm what Trump said.

This not some bogus opinion article from a left or right wing bias media worker who wasn't even there making crap up or supposedly getting their information from an anonymous source who most likely was not even at the meeting.

Media relations are the mouth piece of the board and/or CEO of UTC. They basically say what these people want to convey or they are fired.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
What is your definition of a first hand account?

Information given by the people who were actually there is mine.

Trump and UTC are the ones who had the meeting. To me they are the first hand account. We have Trumps version who cannot be refuted as a first hand account. We now have the companies/corporations first hand account given by public relations who is the mouth piece of the company/corporation. They confirm what Trump said.

This not some bogus opinion article from a left or right wing bias media worker who wasn't even there making crap up or supposedly getting their information from an anonymous source who most likely was not even at the meeting.

Media relations are the mouth piece of the board and/or CEO of UTC. They basically say what these people want to convey or they are fired.
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A first hand account would be the personal experience of whoever made the statement or wrote the article, which this is not.
It definitely says what the leaders of UTC told it's author to say, though, since that is said authors job. Still, it isn't the same as a video of or article written by those leaders themselves, which would be a "first hand account".

And frankly, I'm a bit suspicious of press releases, because they are inherently prone to bias.
 
The Mark said:
A first hand account would be the personal experience of whoever made the statement or wrote the article, which this is not.
It definitely says what the leaders of UTC told it's author to say, though, since that is said authors job. Still, it isn't the same as a video of or article written by those leaders themselves, which would be a "first hand account".

And frankly, I'm a bit suspicious of press releases, because they are inherently prone to bias.
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Trump is clearly a first hand account. The media is clearly a second or third had account if we are lucky too often it is just speculation.

In a corporation you are rarely dealing with one man. While the CEO may appear to run things a lot of decisions are voted on by a board of directors. A press conference from a board of directors is not usually done because very seldom do they all agree. So the CEO or board speak through a press release on decisions made by the corporation. The CEO could very well have been against keeping the jobs here. However a board of directors representing the stock holders could vote to keep them here. But in the end the corporation general speaks through a media person or even department. A press release is the voice of the company or corporation.

A press release is the corporation speaking. Are they lying? They very well could be. But the press release is the voice of the corporation. Unless someone can prove they are lying it is the message the corporation is trying to convey just the same as an individual talking. From what I know a corporation is a person. ?
 
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