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Obama should have done more to counter Russia's election meddling, top Dem says

American said:
Are you surprised the Russians are doing this? Do you think the US does it?
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Should not have to think about it

The Us has been masters of it

The most glaring example is Chile in the late 60s and early 70s.

The book the Pinochet File provides a great documented record of the US interference in multiple Chilean elections (up to the overthrow of their government by the man who was responsible for the first car bomb to go off in DC)
 
American said:
Yes, why didn't Obama do that?
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Well, we have a problem here, because it would seem that up to four different people have access to your account.

American #1 says "If the meddling was done, it's too late at this point to stop it." implying that even if it happened it's all in the past and there's nothing we should be doing about it anymore.

American #2 says "The Russians apparently revealed thru Wikileaks some inconvenient truths about Hillary's and Podesta's emails." implying that you admire the Russians' hacking because it delivered "the truth" to the American people, and thus Russian interference in our election was a positive.

American #3 says "Are you surprised the Russians are doing this? Do you think the US does it?" implying that Russians hacking our election is fine because everybody does it and therefore we shouldn't criticize them for it.

And American #4 agrees that, yes, the President should be protecting the American electoral process from interference from hostile international adversaries.

So the real question is, which of the posters that go by the handle "American" should I be debating? American #1, #2, #3 or #4? Also, would you like me to report to the moderators that your account has been compromised by multiple users?
 
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American said:
Your twisted logic is trying to blame Trump for what Obama failed to do, and that was to stop the interference.
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the reality is tRump has done NOTHING to the russians for their election tampering
while Obama did
both hold the same information and had that information for an equivalent period of time
tRump blames Obama for doing nothing while doing nothing himself - except returning to russia the intelligence gathering facilities Obama took from the russians
Obama informed the American public of the russian election tampering. in contrast, tRump has shown no interest in said election tampering
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
So you admit there was interference?
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Hi LT....

I'm not sure I would even classify it as "interference".... Demo's have their collective panties in a wad because Oppo research possibly obtained through hacking of emails was published, and embarrassing for democrats. Nothing that demo's wouldn't have done to repubs if they could have....Plus, you have demo's that were just sure that there was NO WAY that Hillary would lose to Trump of all people, so she didn't even put up much more than a mailing it in campaign, and were all shocked when she lost....She was the absolutely worst candidate demo's could have put up....

Now, to date, there has been NO information that actual votes were changed, tampered with, or otherwise "interfered" with. There has been NO verification that peoples minds were changed, manipulated, or otherwise obstructed, and there has been NO connection of Trump directly involved with Russia, or anyone else involved in doing any of these things...

The horse is dead...That's why demo's are now shifting the sands in terms of going after the President...It is a huge temper tantrum, and like children they deserve the losses they have had in the special elections, and should, and will continue to lose should they continue down this childish road...IMHO.
 
justabubba said:
the reality is tRump has done NOTHING to the russians for their election tampering
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False, He has a commission on election fraud headed by the VP that is looking at this as well as other abnormalities....

both hold the same information and had that information for an equivalent period of time
tRump blames Obama for doing nothing while doing nothing himself...
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He was a citizen candidate....What was he supposed to do in your eyes?

except returning to russia the intelligence gathering facilities Obama took from the russians
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Not aware of this, could you lay this out please?

Obama informed the American public of the russian election tampering. in contrast, tRump has shown no interest in said election tampering
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Obama knew of this supposed tampering long before the October release of said knowledge, and could have acted sooner, but on his way out, and thinking that NO way Hillary would lose to Trump, he sat on it. As I pointed out before, Trump has not removed sanctions, he has not buddied up to Putin like you thought he would, and he has put together a commission to look at this among other election abnormalities....So, I can only conclude that your highly partisan rant is little more than full of ****.
 
j-mac said:
Hi LT....

I'm not sure I would even classify it as "interference".... Demo's have their collective panties in a wad because Oppo research possibly obtained through hacking of emails was published, and embarrassing for democrats. Nothing that demo's wouldn't have done to repubs if they could have....Plus, you have demo's that were just sure that there was NO WAY that Hillary would lose to Trump of all people, so she didn't even put up much more than a mailing it in campaign, and were all shocked when she lost....She was the absolutely worst candidate demo's could have put up....

Now, to date, there has been NO information that actual votes were changed, tampered with, or otherwise "interfered" with. There has been NO verification that peoples minds were changed, manipulated, or otherwise obstructed, and there has been NO connection of Trump directly involved with Russia, or anyone else involved in doing any of these things...

The horse is dead...That's why demo's are now shifting the sands in terms of going after the President...It is a huge temper tantrum, and like children they deserve the losses they have had in the special elections, and should, and will continue to lose should they continue down this childish road...IMHO.
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I don't believe we know what was fully done

The leak that got Reality in jail indicated Russia was trying to hack the voting machine service companies.


But lets look at it this way if all Russia did was produce fake news and hack the Democratic party (or get the information from someone who did hack it)


1. We know advertising works, it helps influence people to buy or not to buy certain products or services. If it did not work companies would not pay so much for it. Pizza gate was fake news, yet was believed by an unknown number of people. Russian produced fake news should be viewed as advertising. I am sure that more than one person had their mind changed based on all the various leaks

2. In the US federal election, all that would be required to influence the outcome would be to change the mind of 2% of the population depending on location.

So without a full investigation into how far Russian hacking went, to answer questions like

1 Did Russian hacking work in getting a virus into the voting machine service companies who then transferred that virus to the voting machines. That is not far fetched, it is how the US/Israel got Stuxnet into Iranian centrifuge systems.

2 The investigation should ignore all the fake news, and sources of fake news, as that is not going to be preventable in a society with freedom of the press even the fake press

3 Check for collusion or knowledge of the hacking in the Trump admin before or after

4 And just because Investigate Trump for every little thing he has done, eventually to catch him in a simple person lie leading to his impeachment (but not removal from office) and have it go on for the rest of his admin (ie Clinton, Watergate and the stain on the dress which had zero to do with why the initial investigation of Clinton started)
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I don't believe we know what was fully done
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I think after a year of looking at this we have a pretty darn good idea....If you don't then please cite what you think is unknown.....

The leak that got Reality in jail indicated Russia was trying to hack the voting machine service companies.
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Yep, and trying is not succeeding right?

But lets look at it this way if all Russia did was produce fake news and hack the Democratic party (or get the information from someone who did hack it)
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That is literally all there is to this at this point....

1. We know advertising works, it helps influence people to buy or not to buy certain products or services. If it did not work companies would not pay so much for it. Pizza gate was fake news, yet was believed by an unknown number of people. Russian produced fake news should be viewed as advertising. I am sure that more than one person had their mind changed based on all the various leaks
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Ok, so, should we criminalize oppo research? Because what is different about that?

2. In the US federal election, all that would be required to influence the outcome would be to change the mind of 2% of the population depending on location.
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Isn't that literally what campaigning is designed to do?

So without a full investigation into how far Russian hacking went, to answer questions like
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Except that now you don't have an unbiased investigation going on...What you have is a political circus that is never ending with committees going further down rabbit holes for partisan reasons, a former FBI director that leaked after being fired to prompt his close friend being appointed as SC, who has compiled what looks like a democrat dream team of prosecutors that have been big donors to the democrats....What a mess....

1 Did Russian hacking work in getting a virus into the voting machine service companies who then transferred that virus to the voting machines. That is not far fetched, it is how the US/Israel got Stuxnet into Iranian centrifuge systems.
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"Intelligence agency leaders say that Russia's attacks did not change any actual votes in the 2016 race..."

Report: Russia Launched Cyberattack On Voting Vendor Ahead Of Election : NPR

So your answer is no.

3 Check for collusion or knowledge of the hacking in the Trump admin before or after
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Name me one person on any committee, or intel service that has testified that there is evidence of this....There is none, and it is time to move on from this stupid charge...

But, even if there was evidence of such, can you cite for me a statute that would be potentially violated in connection with this supposed "collusion" that doesn't exist...?

4 And just because Investigate Trump for every little thing he has done, eventually to catch him in a simple person lie leading to his impeachment (but not removal from office) and have it go on for the rest of his admin (ie Clinton, Watergate and the stain on the dress which had zero to do with why the initial investigation of Clinton started)
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I remember during that time when we were debating on WS, I believe that you decried actions by Republican's at the time, saying that democrats would never do that....Now, I guess it's all good to go on fishing exercises because it's someone you don't support right?

So, can I conclude that democrats are not about getting anything done for the people of this country, just interested in partisan, venomous congressional food fights while getting nothing done? God, I hope this destroys the democrat party.
 
j-mac said:
I think after a year of looking at this we have a pretty darn good idea....If you don't then please cite what you think is unknown.....



Yep, and trying is not succeeding right?



That is literally all there is to this at this point....



Ok, so, should we criminalize oppo research? Because what is different about that?



Isn't that literally what campaigning is designed to do?



Except that now you don't have an unbiased investigation going on...What you have is a political circus that is never ending with committees going further down rabbit holes for partisan reasons, a former FBI director that leaked after being fired to prompt his close friend being appointed as SC, who has compiled what looks like a democrat dream team of prosecutors that have been big donors to the democrats....What a mess....



"Intelligence agency leaders say that Russia's attacks did not change any actual votes in the 2016 race..."

Report: Russia Launched Cyberattack On Voting Vendor Ahead Of Election : NPR

So your answer is no.



Name me one person on any committee, or intel service that has testified that there is evidence of this....There is none, and it is time to move on from this stupid charge...

But, even if there was evidence of such, can you cite for me a statute that would be potentially violated in connection with this supposed "collusion" that doesn't exist...?



I remember during that time when we were debating on WS, I believe that you decried actions by Republican's at the time, saying that democrats would never do that....Now, I guess it's all good to go on fishing exercises because it's someone you don't support right?

So, can I conclude that democrats are not about getting anything done for the people of this country, just interested in partisan, venomous congressional food fights while getting nothing done? God, I hope this destroys the democrat party.
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Re the bolded part

I don't want it for any reason other than entertainment purposes for myself remember I am Canadian and while I don't like Trump, it does not mean I support the democrats in the US. Heck I could not believe that the US had such poor top candidates for President this time (not just Trump and Clinton, but Sanders and Cruz as well)

Now in reality

Something has to change in US politics, it is devolving into what is seen in really immature democracies in which elected officials (congress or similar are truly just figure heads)
mainly look for gotcha moments rather than do what is best for the country on the long term.
 
Captain Adverse said:
People keeps saying (as if it has been proven a fact) that Flynn discussed removing the sanctions with Kislyev prior to Trumps' election. This "story" is based on a WaPo article on 02/09/17 alleging former Obama officials knew from telephone recordings that Flynn did discuss this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...c2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.3ff864143091

Yet to my knowledge this has never been proven. Nothing after that story was published has come to light showing this was actually discussed. I have been searching and have found no subsequent reports from the investigation confirming this allegation.

Yet people accept it as a given fact. :confused:

IMO, people should wait until an investigation proves something a fact before ascribing it as such.

Which seems to be the general problem.

Fact: There was some Russian activity which colored the election.

The facts also show that the DNC documents "leaked" showed collusion to defeat Bernie's campaign; collusion with CNN to give Hilly debate questions in advance; and several other acts of malfeasance.

The facts also show that Obama's Attorney-General met with Bill Clinton, and shortly thereafter attempted to "modify" the FBI investigation (according to Mr. Comey's testimony).

The facts also show that President Obama's Administration knew of the alleged interference long before "sanctions" were imposed in December 2016...AFTER the election results.

The facts are that people were apprised of possible Russian interference prior to voting in November, and this may have affected Democrats but did not affect those of us who voted for Trump.

Hell, I was pointing out back then it did not matter where the info came from, as long as it was proven true. (Something most of the "leaks" after Trump's election have failed to do).

The facts are there has been no real evidence of any actual collusion between Trump or member's of his campaign with this Russian interference. NOPE! :no:

Just a lot of smoke, sound and fury signifying nothing of substance.

Something the #ResistTrump crowd refuse to keep in mind. :coffeepap:
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:applaud
 
justabubba said:
Donald Trump 2005 tape: I grab women “by the *****.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o21fXqguD7U

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html

deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2

those cites are posted not to rehash the grab her by the ***** comment but to identify the date this became a huge media story
it effectively crowded out attention to the white house announcement you have posted to remind the reader that the president was not silent on this russian election interference matter
the public was entranced by the ***** grabbing story and effectively ignored Obama's russian election tampering notice
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That's the media for you!
 
Cardinal said:
Exactly. The announcement by the Obama administration would in a normal universe have been a giant story that would have dominated the headlines for weeks. But it was a complex story overtaken the very next day by a completely not-complex sex-related story that, in a normal universe should have easily ended the Trump campaign that same day.
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Announcing and doing something about it isn't the same.
 
Weak as it was (expelling 35 Russians and closing two Russian compounds in the US), at least Obama did something.

In five months Trump has done absolutely nothing in regards to Russian meddling except consider removing Obama's above orders.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I don't believe we know what was fully done

The leak that got Reality in jail indicated Russia was trying to hack the voting machine service companies.


But lets look at it this way if all Russia did was produce fake news and hack the Democratic party (or get the information from someone who did hack it)


1. We know advertising works, it helps influence people to buy or not to buy certain products or services. If it did not work companies would not pay so much for it. Pizza gate was fake news, yet was believed by an unknown number of people. Russian produced fake news should be viewed as advertising. I am sure that more than one person had their mind changed based on all the various leaks

2. In the US federal election, all that would be required to influence the outcome would be to change the mind of 2% of the population depending on location.

So without a full investigation into how far Russian hacking went, to answer questions like

1 Did Russian hacking work in getting a virus into the voting machine service companies who then transferred that virus to the voting machines. That is not far fetched, it is how the US/Israel got Stuxnet into Iranian centrifuge systems.

2 The investigation should ignore all the fake news, and sources of fake news, as that is not going to be preventable in a society with freedom of the press even the fake press

3 Check for collusion or knowledge of the hacking in the Trump admin before or after

4 And just because Investigate Trump for every little thing he has done, eventually to catch him in a simple person lie leading to his impeachment (but not removal from office) and have it go on for the rest of his admin (ie Clinton, Watergate and the stain on the dress which had zero to do with why the initial investigation of Clinton started)
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However, it wasn't fake news. Those emails of what the DNC and Hillary did were not fake.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Weak as it was (expelling 35 Russians and closing two Russian compounds in the US), at least Obama did something.

In five months Trump has done absolutely nothing in regards to Russian meddling except consider removing Obama's above orders.
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Trump is now saying Obama colluded/obstructed by doing nothing about the Russian hacking that Trump called a hoax for months.

I can't tell who's more desperate. Trump himself or his army of deluded followers who rationalize anything to spare themselves the pain of looking at reality.
 
holbritter said:
However, it wasn't fake news. Those emails of what the DNC and Hillary did were not fake.
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Pizzagate ring a bell?

It was believed by least one person strongly enough he shot at the business
 
holbritter said:
Yes, and many of us who support the truth know that the Russians "meddled" There is no longer any question about that. A few posters have said that already, but no one is paying attention.
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It begs the question why Trump has no interest in doing anything about it.
 
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