Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London[W:219]

Manc Skipper · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Tigerace117 said:
So in other words we are pretending America doesn't exist. Noted.

Actually, there are plenty of people who call themselves Muslims without having any real religious conviction. As the old saying goes, there are Muslims and Muslims.

And the really rabid Christians will tell anyone who'll listen that most Christians aren't real Christians! None more so that the far right evangelicals.

Manc Skipper · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Lord Tammerlain said:
Over history Muslims have tended to be more accepting of Judaism and Christianity.

Only over the last 60 years has that changed.

Spain in the middle ages did have a large Muslim population which was reduced to nearly zero.

While Egypt and Syria both maintained and still do have large Christian populations.
Christians have persecuted Jews on a regular basis through out European history. The Holocaust being the last and of course largest of them

I'm not sure if the Holocaust ever happened in his universe.

truthatallcost · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Tigerace117 said:
So in other words we are pretending America doesn't exist. Noted.

Actually, there are plenty of people who call themselves Muslims without having any real religious conviction. As the old saying goes, there are Muslims and Muslims.

99% of people living in the USA aren't Muslims. I understand that you think everyone should be able to live together, and that's an admirable dream. It's just not reality.

Tigerace117 · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

truthatallcost said:
99% of people living in the USA aren't Muslims. I understand that you think everyone should be able to live together, and that's an admirable dream. It's just not reality.

But everybody has been able to live together in the past. Heck, America is proof number one of the fact that it is possible. It's just difficult sometimes, and it takes everybody working together.

truthatallcost · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Lord Tammerlain said:
Over history Muslims have tended to be more accepting of Judaism and Christianity.

Only over the last 60 years has that changed.

Spain in the middle ages did have a large Muslim population which was reduced to nearly zero.

Since you mentioned 60 years as the timeframe for Muslim hostility towards the other Abrahamic religions, are you referring to the Jewish Crusades of 1948? That does seem to be the start of a lot of these issues.

While Egypt and Syria both maintained and still do have large Christian populations.
Christians have persecuted Jews on a regular basis through out European history. The Holocaust being the last and of course largest of them

The Nazi power structure were not Christians, sorry. They practiced the occult & pagan religions in private, and at times praised Christianity in public in hopes of winning over Lutherans to their cause.

Athanasius68 · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

TheGoverness said:
How nice to see that you have no problem with stooping down to the same level of the Islamic terrorists.

But that really isn't an answer.

It's pretty much a given nowadays that one cannot be 'provocative' and draw a cartoon of Muhammed. It provokes a lot of people beyond writing a letter to the editor.
Yet Broadway can produce a successful and apparently very good musical mocking a founder of a Christian faith. Nobody is worried about provoking Mormons.

But what happens when people who cannot be provoked, start getting provoked? This guy in London was 'provoked' by Muslins blowing up little girls in Manchester, and driving cars into pedestrians on a bridge. What happens then?

truthatallcost · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Tigerace117 said:
But everybody has been able to live together in the past. Heck, America is proof number one of the fact that it is possible. It's just difficult sometimes, and it takes everybody working together.

When Muslims make up 10-20% of the population, come and see me. With 99% of Americans being non-Muslim, there's no way you can say that integration of all religions is working just fine, because it isn't happening to any meaning extent right now.

Muslims still have their segregated pockets in the USA, where they don't really have to interact that much with everyone else.

Erod · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Unfortunate, inevitable, and only the beginning of the beginning in Europe.

Manc Skipper · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

truthatallcost said:
When Muslims make up 10-20% of the population, come and see me. With 99% of Americans being non-Muslim, there's no way you can say that integration of all religions is working just fine, because it isn't happening to any meaning extent right now.

Muslims still have their segregated pockets in the USA, where they don't really have to interact that much with everyone else.

We'll all be long dead before that time is reached.

Hawkeye10 · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Erod said:
Unfortunate, inevitable, and only the beginning of the beginning in Europe.

Will there be enough police/prisons/psych wards to manage?

WE CAN MANAGE

truthatallcost · Jun 19, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Manc Skipper said:
We'll all be long dead before that time is reached.

Not from the effects of Holy War, I hope. :lol:

Andalublue · Jun 20, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Higgins86 said:
Thing is I agree with the majority of what you're saying. Both Islamic fundamentalists and right wing nationalists are in my opinion a product of their surroundings would you not agree? Both to a degree feel isolated by the government and society in general and both are exposed to the same online propaganda.

I agree. I think it's important to deal with both kinds of extremist in the context of combatting their poisonous ideologies AND tackling the issues of alienation and disaffection that are providing the ideologues with the space in the heads of those vulnerable to radicalisation.

If the right-wing extremists are dismissed simply as loners, losers and the mentally ill, nothing gets done to get to the bottom of the radicalisation forces at work. I sense a reluctance to admit that society has a problem of a far-right movement. Clearly it's not the same as the jihadi forces and organisations operating in western countries, but to say that it doesn't exist is foolish. It might be operating a much more diffuse and individualised process of radicalisation, more online and covert than jihadis groups that attach to mosques or mainstream Muslim organisations, but clearly it is still happening and pretending that these attacks on individual Muslims in the street and events like the murder of Jo Cox and the Finsbury Park attacks are merely aberrant actions of lone-wolf misfits is to allow the radicalising forces to skate under the radar, to mix metaphors.

Andalublue · Jun 20, 2017

Manc Skipper said:
Following on from Andy's comments of analysis. When a muclim commitas a terrorist act, his family and friends will be arrested and released over the next week or so. White guy? He's a "loner"

There you go. Again with the lone wolf nutter dismissal. The question isn't whether these lone wolf, alienated people with mental health issues are becoming radicalised to go on Islamophobic rampages, but HOW are they getting the ideas and encouragement to act in the way they do?

CaptainCourtesy · Jun 20, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

truthatallcost said:
When Muslims make up 10-20% of the population, come and see me. With 99% of Americans being non-Muslim, there's no way you can say that integration of all religions is working just fine, because it isn't happening to any meaning extent right now.

Muslims still have their segregated pockets in the USA, where they don't really have to interact that much with everyone else.

Actually, research tells us that in the US, Muslims integrate fairly well. 56% who come to the US say they want to adopt US customs and way of life; only 20% say they want to be distinct. If we think about what it has been like through our history of immigration, I'd say this is pretty consistent. Think about areas such as Little Italy or Chinatown when those peoples were immigrating.

truthatallcost · Jun 20, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

CaptainCourtesy said:
Actually, research tells us that in the US, Muslims integrate fairly well. 56% who come to the US say they want to adopt US customs and way of life; only 20% say they want to be distinct. If we think about what it has been like through our history of immigration, I'd say this is pretty consistent. Think about areas such as Little Italy or Chinatown when those peoples were immigrating.

Link?

truthatallcost · Jun 20, 2017

Andalublue said:
There you go. Again with the lone wolf nutter dismissal. The question isn't whether these lone wolf, alienated people with mental health issues are becoming radicalised to go on Islamophobic rampages, but HOW are they getting the ideas and encouragement to act in the way they do?

Gee, where would a mentally ill person in England get the idea to run strangers over in a vehicle? I can't possibly hazard a guess...

CaptainCourtesy · Jun 20, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

truthatallcost said:
Link?

Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism | Pew Research Center

Andalublue · Jun 20, 2017

truthatallcost said:
Gee, where would a mentally ill person in England get the idea to run strangers over in a vehicle? I can't possibly hazard a guess...

Again with the 'mentally ill' excuses. Are you going to exonerate the Westminster Bridge attacker in the same way? Representative of a violent ideology, or a nutter? Note the difference in the headlines and content of the articles. The British press appears to be in denial of the existence of radicalised right-wing extremists.

Did no one else note the complete absence of anyone questioning whether the Finsbury Park attacker might have been part of an organised network of right-wing extremists? He may well not have been, but I didn't hear the question even asked once in the media. It was one of the first questions the media posed when the Manchester Arena bomber was identified.

CaptainCourtesy · Jun 20, 2017

truthatallcost said:
Gee, where would a mentally ill person in England get the idea to run strangers over in a vehicle? I can't possibly hazard a guess...

Are you justifying or excusing it? Perhaps when discussing Hodgkinson's shooting of Republicans recently, someone should post lots of Trump's and other Republican's comments and then say, "Gee, where would am abusive, alcoholic, violent left wing loon get the idea to shoot Republicans? I can't possibly hazard a guess..."

See how dumb some of these comments of yours sound?

Athanasius68 · Jun 20, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

CaptainCourtesy said:
Actually, research tells us that in the US, Muslims integrate fairly well. 56% who come to the US say they want to adopt US customs and way of life; only 20% say they want to be distinct. If we think about what it has been like through our history of immigration, I'd say this is pretty consistent. Think about areas such as Little Italy or Chinatown when those peoples were immigrating.

Ok-- and how many people does that 20% actually represent?
And do they have an indifference to everyone else not being "distinct?"

Athanasius68 · Jun 20, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Are you justifying or excusing it? Perhaps when discussing Hodgkinson's shooting of Republicans recently, someone should post lots of Trump's and other Republican's comments and then say, "Gee, where would am abusive, alcoholic, violent left wing loon get the idea to shoot Republicans? I can't possibly hazard a guess..."

See how dumb some of these comments of yours sound?

This guy wasn't being provoked by Islamic dietary laws proscribing pork products.
He was provoked by the recent spate of Islamic terrorism. I mean, he copied the vehicular running down pedestrians tactic to a tee.

It was an unacceptable reaction to a problem the authorities are unable to deal with, and apparently don't even want to define.

truthatallcost · Jun 20, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Are you justifying or excusing it?

Neither, I was answering Anda's question.

Perhaps when discussing Hodgkinson's shooting of Republicans recently, someone should post lots of Trump's and other Republican's comments and then say, "Gee, where would am abusive, alcoholic, violent left wing loon get the idea to shoot Republicans? I can't possibly hazard a guess..."

Because Trump & other Republicans are out shooting democrats, right? Lmao, you didn't even convey an accurate representation of what I said to Anda.

See how dumb some of these comments of yours sound?

You didn't understand my comment. Don't go throwing the word 'dumb' out there, it might land in your lap.

truthatallcost · Jun 20, 2017

Andalublue said:
Again with the 'mentally ill' excuses. Are you going to exonerate the Westminster Bridge attacker in the same way?

Of course not, he's dead. Too late to be exonerated.

Representative of a violent ideology, or a nutter? Note the difference in the headlines and content of the articles. The British press appears to be in denial of the existence of radicalised right-wing extremists.

36 people have been killed in England by Isis-inspired terrorists since March, 2017.

1 person has been killed in England by anti-Muslim terrorism in ALL of 2017.

Which is the bigger threat?

Did no one else note the complete absence of anyone questioning whether the Finsbury Park attacker might have been part of an organised network of right-wing extremists?

Name some of those networks Andy. I'm waiting. Which names should they have used?

He may well not have been, but I didn't hear the question even asked once in the media. It was one of the first questions the media posed when the Manchester Arena bomber was identified.

There's no right wing equivalent of Isis in the UK, is there? Before you answer that, remember that Isis has killed thousands of people, and recruited people to kill for them.

Andalublue · Jun 20, 2017

truthatallcost said:
Of course not, he's dead. Too late to be exonerated.

Way to avoid answering!

36 people have been killed in England by Isis-inspired terrorists since March, 2017.

1 person has been killed in England by anti-Muslim terrorism in ALL of 2017.

Which is the bigger threat?

Straw man. No one's claiming they're a bigger threat. Question dodged again.

Name some of those networks Andy. I'm waiting. Which names should they have used?

No one's investigating whether the likes of the EDL, National Action, BDP, Britain First might have had any role or contact with Osborne. I'd definitely be looking at NA and BF.

There's no right wing equivalent of Isis in the UK, is there? Before you answer that, remember that Isis has killed thousands of people, and recruited people to kill for them.

I just listed them. Also, whilst ISIS claim all and every terrorist attack. Not all extremist attackers are coordinated by ISIS, not even most.

Lord Tammerlain · Jun 20, 2017

Re: Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London

Athanasius68 said:
Ok-- and how many people does that 20% actually represent?
And do they have an indifference to everyone else not being "distinct?"

For the US about 600 000 people, most likely 450 000 to account for polling not including childern

Casualties as Van Mows Down Pedestrians in London[W:219]

Manc Skipper

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Athanasius68

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