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Global demand for coal falls in 2016 for second year in a row

JasperL said:
The problem with your question is illustrated perfectly with coal. If there are no EPA or other regs, coal burning plants offload a huge amount of the costs of burning coal onto the public through dirty air and the problems, including early death, associated with that. So somehow the price of coal has to reflect those negative externalities. If not, "deregulating" coal is to subsidize coal by forcing all of us to pay for the costs of pollution.

And if you've been to China, the cause of the reduced demand there is obvious - air so filthy it kills reportedly up to 500,000 Chinese per year. During our visit, there were times coal produced smog reduced visibility during "clear" days to a quarter mile or less. Pretty incredible to see in person.
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IMF have done a study of the total cost of fossil fuel and it's enormous.

Fossil fuel companies are benefitting from global subsidies of $5.3tn (£3.4tn) a year, equivalent to $10m a minute every day, according to a startling new estimate by the International Monetary Fund.


The IMF calls the revelation “shocking” and says the figure is an “extremely robust” estimate of the true cost of fossil fuels. The $5.3tn subsidy estimated for 2015 is greater than the total health spending of all the world’s governments.


The vast sum is largely due to polluters not paying the costs imposed on governments by the burning of coal, oil and gas. These include the harm caused to local populations by air pollution as well as to people across the globe affected by the floods, droughts and storms being driven by climate change...

The IMF, one of the world’s most respected financial institutions, said that ending subsidies for fossil fuels would cut global carbon emissions by 20%. That would be a giant step towards taming global warming, an issue on which the world has made little progress to date.


Ending the subsidies would also slash the number of premature deaths from outdoor air pollution by 50% – about 1.6 million lives a year.
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https://www.theguardian.com/environ...es-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf

Not included in that cost is the consequences of Western countries being dependent on oil from the Middle East. That have led to costly wars, USA military protecting brutale dictatorships like Saudia Arabia, terrorism and a lot of other problems and costs. Also after over 50 yeas of western involvement in the ME those countries are far from being democratic and peaceful.
 
apdst said:
The thing is, renewables aren't becoming cheaper.

Plus, this will never run on electrity...
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That's false - laughable actually. :roll: The data show renewables becoming cheaper every year.

And, so what about trucks (or airplanes)? I think you're wrong about trucks if we're looking out far enough, but it doesn't matter. Cars can and do run on electricity, so do houses, street lights, office buildings, etc.
 
apdst said:
Driverless vehicles will go tits up within a year.

Why is it that every solution Liberals come up with means putting people out of work?
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We get it, you're in fear of losing your livelihood, I would be too.
 
JasperL said:
That's false - laughable actually. :roll: The data show renewables becoming cheaper every year.

And, so what about trucks (or airplanes)? I think you're wrong about trucks if we're looking out far enough, but it doesn't matter. Cars can and do run on electricity, so do houses, street lights, office buildings, etc.
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If they're so great, then cut the subsidies.
 
Deuce said:
Says a guy who will smug it up in every thread about McDonald's replacing people with ordering kiosks. I guess you react differently when it's your job on the chopping block. Maybe you should just take a pay cut.

I have some news for you: a business cutting costs isn't a "liberal solution." It's just how businesses function. If a robot can do your job, odds are you're not going to keep your job for long. Machines don't sleep, don't eat, don't draw a salary, and don't need health insurance. Not to mention all those horrible, horrible taxes you pay to employ them. You're more expensive to maintain, apdst. You're in the same boat as those McDonald's employees, only yours is sailing a bit slower. They're already more expensive than the ordering kiosks. (hint: an ipad, some power cables, and some software does not cost $10,000) In fact, those kiosks are already there in every McDonald's: they're just turned around facing the cashier. The hurdle for them is more cultural than financial/technical at this point, customers are slower and resistant to the new concept of pushing buttons to order their food instead of telling a person.

You? Your job's hurdles are still technical. Self-driving trucks are going to take a while to test and refine in order to be reliable enough for the public, and the DOT, to accept them. But once they do? Yeah, a little computer box and some sensors are going to be less expensive than you real quick. Plus, the robot will be vastly more productive than you. They can drive essentially 24/7/365. You can't.

My own situation is similar. Flying planes is already something a computer can do. Automating aircraft is actually easier than automating cars and trucks. The environment is controlled better, and there isn't so much stuff to hit. Most pilots will grudgingly admit that the autopilot is way better at our jobs than we are. We're here because the public is terrified of the idea of us not being there when something goes wrong. But a generation that grows up with driverless cars? Yeah, they're going to wonder why they need two human beings up front of an airplane.

Pretty sure I'll be retired or dead by then, though.
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Are pilotless passenger aircraft right around the corner. The technology is far more advanced in the aviation industry than the ground transportation industry.
 
apdst said:
You chose an industry propaganda rag as your proof?

I drive trucks for a living...never seen one. They'll be just like electric cars: without government subsidies they'll go tits up.
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As an aside, serious question, not meant to antagonize or troll, interested in your perspective as a truck driver: How did you feel when you heard about the first unmanned truck delivery?

https://www.recode.net/2016/10/25/13392326/uber-otto-self-driving-truck-first-commercial-delivery
 
apdst said:
If they're so great, then cut the subsidies.
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OK, so you get caught making hilariously wrong assertions, so you move the goal posts. :roll:

And, fine, cut the subsidies. Start charging oil companies for the cost of the U.S. military that protects their worldwide supplies. Charge the fossil fuel companies for the disease their emissions cause, and other damages from pollution. Etc........ For some reason, conservatives refuse to acknowledge the massive historical subsidies of fossil fuels and nuclear energy and only have a problem with subsidies of cleaner renewables.

I was just in Virginia over the weekend and out in the country there is huge opposition to Dominion's plan to build a pipeline across parts of the state. If Dominion had to convince land owners to voluntarily sell them the right to place pipelines across their property, fine (same with the other pipelines in the news lately). But the plan is to give these private for-profit companies the power of eminent domain to FORCE these landowners to sell. That's a massive subsidy - end those and charge fossil fuel companies a fair price for all the other government subsidies over the decades, and we can talk about the problems of solar or wind subsidies, and competing on a "level" playing field.
 
apdst said:
Not much. We'll be flying in spaceships before trucks drivers are replaced.
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I work in logistics and have a ton of respect for you guys....but I also know that, as one of the last non-specialized jobs that actually can provide a decent living, if logistics companies can do it cheaper, they will... Some of the union guys with seniority were making 6 figures driving in our fleet... Under the rules of capitalism, if the automated trucks can do it cheaper, with no need to worry about hours of service or rest stops, shouldn't companies replace you? Especially if it's dock to dock, and the unloading folks are unionized (therefore not willing to let you do anything other than sit in your truck and maybe get out to hand your paperwork to their gate controllers)...

(Trying to be respectful here, wanting to hear your perspective, so I'll say again, def not flaming you, the only reason you're hearing from me on this is because you mentioned you are a truck driver)
 
JasperL said:
OK, so you get caught making hilariously wrong assertions, so you move the goal posts. :roll:

And, fine, cut the subsidies. Start charging oil companies for the cost of the U.S. military that protects their worldwide supplies. Charge the fossil fuel companies for the disease their emissions cause, and other damages from pollution. Etc........ For some reason, conservatives refuse to acknowledge the massive historical subsidies of fossil fuels and nuclear energy and only have a problem with subsidies of cleaner renewables.

I was just in Virginia over the weekend and out in the country there is huge opposition to Dominion's plan to build a pipeline across parts of the state. If Dominion had to convince land owners to voluntarily sell them the right to place pipelines across their property, fine (same with the other pipelines in the news lately). But the plan is to give these private for-profit companies the power of eminent domain to FORCE these landowners to sell. That's a massive subsidy - end those and charge fossil fuel companies a fair price for all the other government subsidies over the decades, and we can talk about the problems of solar or wind subsidies, and competing on a "level" playing field.
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I eas referring to constriction of the actual windmill to begin with.

I originally said it here, in post #20...

apdst said:
It isn't costing less to build a windmill; especially since they're making them bigger.
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Do you understand the difference between a 42m blade and a 57m blade, in terms of weight and mass?

The 10,000kw generator weighs over 100, 000 pounds. It takes a half-a-million dollars worth of truck and trailer just to haul it down the road.

This it was the 10,000kw looks like loaded. That's just the generator.
 

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JasperL said:
Relevance?

Cite to the evidence?

Thanks!
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This the base section of the tower. Again, half-a-million dollars worth of truck and trailer. 240 thousand pounds gross weight and 218 feet long.
 

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OlNate said:
I work in logistics and have a ton of respect for you guys....but I also know that, as one of the last non-specialized jobs that actually can provide a decent living, if logistics companies can do it cheaper, they will... Some of the union guys with seniority were making 6 figures driving in our fleet... Under the rules of capitalism, if the automated trucks can do it cheaper, with no need to worry about hours of service or rest stops, shouldn't companies replace you? Especially if it's dock to dock, and the unloading folks are unionized (therefore not willing to let you do anything other than sit in your truck and maybe get out to hand your paperwork to their gate controllers)...

(Trying to be respectful here, wanting to hear your perspective, so I'll say again, def not flaming you, the only reason you're hearing from me on this is because you mentioned you are a truck driver)
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The automated trucks won't do it cheaper.
 
OMG, what does that big airfoil do in a cross wind on the back of that truck?
It looks like it would be trying to lift the back of the truck off the road!
 
longview said:
OMG, what does that big airfoil do in a cross wind on the back of that truck?
It looks like it would be trying to lift the back of the truck off the road!
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It can get scary as damn hell. We shutdown on account of wind numerous times.
 
apdst said:
Not much. We'll be flying in spaceships before trucks drivers are replaced.
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I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Autonomous trucks don't need health insurance, vacations, or sick days. They don't unionize. They can operate safely 24/7. They don't get tired. They don't need AC or refrigerators or stereos. They don't quit because they hate the job. They don't quit because they're separated from their families. They don't need months of training. They might be able to save fuel by drafting off one another ("platooning"). Anything that requires human interaction can be taken care of virtually.

1/3 of the costs of the trucking industry is labor. If you don't think trucking companies will jump on a chance to drastically reduce those costs, then you are in for a nasty surprise.
 
poor Dakota is gonna have to go work @ Walmart & McDonalds now ................

maybe he can find a Walmart that has the McDonalds in the store front & he will only have to get one bus ride to work every day :2wave:
 
longview said:
OMG, what does that big airfoil do in a cross wind on the back of that truck?
It looks like it would be trying to lift the back of the truck off the road!
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This is a cool video of a job I was on in Plainview Texas summer before last. If I remember right those are 42m blades.

https://youtu.be/wH3lbfCok0Q
 
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