Election 2017: Tories to be largest party - exit poll

Hatuey · Jun 16, 2017

DarkWizard12 said:
View attachment 67218871

Tiny picture without link? I'm convinced. Here's a fun fact:

EU Referendum Results - BBC News

View attachment 67218883

Again, make it all about Brexit and they win by 20% when they couldn't even win Brexit by 20%.

Lol, sure. Do you know how this works?

DarkWizard12 said:
I said Theresa May would win by 20% if she made it about brexit, there is a difference, which I just pointed out earlier. Try again.

awwww, you're telling a british citizen (fully married and immigrated as of May 2016) what's unbecoming. That's cute.

A 'british' citizen believing that you could win with a +20% margin by making an election all about Brexit, when Brexit itself didn't even get anywhere near a +20% margin of victory.

Yup, I'm convinced.

Andalublue · Jun 16, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
Such as?

Don't be obtuse, IC. I just said:

hatred of poor people, her determination to destroy public services and her commitment to all the most rancid aspects of policy the 'nasty party' can propose

More specifically, this is the Ruth Davidson who wants to increase prescription fees; introduce tuition fees; did nothing to oppose George Osborne's 4.4 billion cut to disability benefits last year; supported the spending of 200 billion+ on Trident renewal.

Sadly, I would argue you have created a strawman to beat as she’s a Scottish MSP rather than within the main Conservative hierarchy.

She the leader of the Conservative Party in Scotland. She's just had an election result which bucked the national trend, so to argue she has no say and zero influence over the UK party in general is disingenuous at best.

Give the poor woman a chance and time.

To do what? You think she'll ever become First Minister? Unlikely.

As for her influence on Westminster, she isn’t even in parliament and so unable to put pressure on the UK govt in any way. I doubt the Labour Leader for Scotland has any influence on the more senior Labour colleagues in Westminster.

With the PM teetering on the brink of political suicide, she's one of about 4 people being touted as possible leaders of the party and the country. You, and others of your mindset, seem to be talking her up as if she the latest incarnation of the Messiah. Very much as you did when Theresa May was elected. Wild enthusiasm on the basis of no real achievement, a thin track record, and for no other apparent reason other than she can do a good TV interview which, in that at least, she does have the advantage over May.

When she’s in Govt, I will tell you about her govt achievements. You’ve simply broadbrushed because she’s (for you) a hated Tory.

Why would anyone want to see her in government? What exactly has she done to merit the plaudits and garlands all you sad (as in, sad that you lost your majority, not an insult) Tory supporters seem to be wanting to pile at her feet?

DarkWizard12 · Jun 16, 2017

Hatuey said:
Tiny picture without link? I'm convinced. Here's a fun fact:

EU Referendum Results - BBC News

View attachment 67218883

Again, make it all about Brexit and they win by 20% when they couldn't even win Brexit by 20%.

Lol, sure. Do you know how this works?

A 'british' citizen believing that you could win with a +20% margin by making an election all about Brexit, when Brexit itself didn't even get anywhere near a +20% margin of victory.

Yup, I'm convinced.

Again, I didn't say brexit attained 20% plus support. Only that the Tories could have gotten 20% support if they made it about brexit. There is a difference and I explained it in my posts. For your information, there was only one party that campaigned against Brexit, and that was the Lib dems, why don't you tell me how they fared?

Hatuey · Jun 16, 2017

DarkWizard12 said:
Again, I didn't say brexit attained 20% plus support. Only that the Tories could have gotten 20% support if they made it about brexit.

Wow, you really are using this amazingly stupid argument. How would Theresa May win an election with +20% by making the election all about an issue in which she couldn't get +20% support on?

Please, elaborate on your vast knowledge of British politics after only 1 year of having gotten citizenship.

:lol:

DarkWizard12 · Jun 16, 2017

Hatuey said:
Wow, you really are using this amazingly stupid argument. How would Theresa May win an election with +20% by making the election all about an issue in which she couldn't get +20% support on?

I just told you how. The pro-brexit vote was consolidated(initially) with the tories, that's why they led by so much when she called the election and why it made sense for her to seek to solidify her majority. The remain vote was split between Labour, Lib Dems, and SNP, and labour was unpopular because many people didn't think that they, being the main opposition party, were truly against brexit. Only the lib dems and SNP sought to remain in their party platform. Think of it like Jill stein taking votes away from Hillary, except by greater margins and well...more Jill steins around.

Of course, however, once the conservative manifesto came out, it was no less about brexit and more about public services and the aptly named "dementia tax", her u-turn, etc. That's why you had so many UKIP voters in the northeast vote for labour instead.

Please, elaborate on your vast knowledge of British politics after only 1 year of having gotten citizenship.

A year longer than you.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 16, 2017

Andalublue said:
Don't be obtuse, IC. I just said:

More specifically, this is the Ruth Davidson who wants to increase prescription fees; introduce tuition fees; did nothing to oppose George Osborne's 4.4 billion cut to disability benefits last year; supported the spending of 200 billion+ on Trident renewal.

How can it be obtuse to challenge your empty claims? Firstly go and google the Scottish conservatives position on free prescriptions but more importantly recognise they dropped their opposition due to pressure from the pubic. Now go and look at what is prescribed free - some medicines are actually cheaper than if you buy them in Boots or superdrug for 20p while the NHS can be charged £6 for the same drugs to be given free.

Andalublue said:
She the leader of the Conservative Party in Scotland. She's just had an election result which bucked the national trend, so to argue she has no say and zero influence over the UK party in general is disingenuous at best.

Show me what policy before she pushed for a softer Brexit she would have any influence over then?

Andalublue said:
To do what? You think she'll ever become First Minister? Unlikely.

Yet you think somehow she should be able to dictate Westminster policy? Are you aware what you throw at her and then want her to show she can do?

Andalublue said:
Very much as you did when Theresa May was elected.

You really want me to show you who YOU suggested was a reasonable PM candidate when Cameron stood down? Your memory that short? I'm busy across two houses needing redecoration this weekend but I'll find you your post if the forum software allows me by Sunday.

Andalublue said:
Why would anyone want to see her in government? What exactly has she done to merit the plaudits and garlands all you sad (as in, sad that you lost your majority, not an insult) Tory supporters seem to be wanting to pile at her feet?

They're not. The conservatives also have hard brexit idiots like Liam Fox and Michael Gove while the Labour party has its own. Look at the candidates after Cameron left and see who was available. She is located in Scotland, not even in Westminster and cannot stand for Parliament yet so how could she become leader?

Andalublue · Jun 17, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
She is located in Scotland, not even in Westminster and cannot stand for Parliament yet so how could she become leader?

On 23 October 1963, four days after becoming Prime Minister, Home disclaimed his earldom and associated lesser peerages.Having been made a knight of the Order of the Thistle in 1962, he was known after stepping down from the Lords as Sir Alec Douglas-Home. The safe Unionist seat of Kinross and West Perthshire was vacant, and Douglas-Home was adopted as his party's candidate. Parliament was due to meet on 24 October after the summer recess, but its return was postponed until 12 November pending the by-election. For twenty days Douglas-Home was Prime Minister while a member of neither house of Parliament, a situation without modern precedent. He won the by-election with a majority of 9,328; the Liberal candidate was in second place and Labour in third.

Alec Douglas-Home

Where there's a will there's a way, and this gives perfect precedent.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 17, 2017

Andalublue said:
Alec Douglas-Home

Where there's a will there's a way, and this gives perfect precedent.

These last few years have shown that little can be taken for granted but I think a lot has to happen before she is put forward. She certainly was the best Conservative campaigner during the EU referendum and definitely won me over.
Cameron may be vilified now for calling the referendum but he certainly made the Conservatives electable after William Hague and Ian Duncan Smith who are like Theresa May for people with equal lack of charm and public empathy.

Andalublue · Jun 17, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
These last few years have shown that little can be taken for granted but I think a lot has to happen before she is put forward. She certainly was the best Conservative campaigner during the EU referendum and definitely won me over.

You were easy to convince, IC. How could you not be, seeing the paltry reserves in your party's talent pool?

Cameron may be vilified now for calling the referendum but he certainly made the Conservatives electable after William Hague and Ian Duncan Smith who are like Theresa May for people with equal lack of charm and public empathy.

He did his best and just about managed to keep his head above water during the coalition period. He goes and gets himself a majority, and blows it. He hands over that majority to May, and what does she do? Blows it again.

This whole Grenfell debâcle could well finally do for May. She's handled it badly and went into it with no reserves of popular goodwill to draw on anyway. No wonder John McDonnell's calling for another election asap. Labour looks like they actually could be heading for government. The first socialist government since 1951.

You're right, Ruth Davidson would struggle to win a leadership contest and, as far as I can see, would be way too far out of the Tory mainstream for the English Tories to accept her, but what would the alternative be?

Contenders to replace May:
David Davies
Boris Johnson
Andrea Leadsom

They're not floating anyone's boat, not even yours, now are they?

Infinite Chaos · Jun 18, 2017

Andalublue said:
You were easy to convince, IC. How could you not be, seeing the paltry reserves in your party's talent pool?

On the contrary (and not returning your tetchiness) there are some good candidates and Conservative MPs in Parliament. Most of Cameron's intake in 2015 came from the world of business, were not Old Etonians but from state schools.

For every Rhee-Mogg, Redwood, Duncan Smith, Leadsom etc there are some exciting young candidates who worked hard in the private sector and made themselves.

Andalublue said:
Labour looks like they actually could be heading for government.

It was 6% before Grenfell......

Andalublue said:
~ They're not floating anyone's boat, not even yours, now are they?

Yes but those people are all Brexiteers. You forget that after the referendum there was talk of remain Conservatives and Labour people forming a new centrist party. The EU has not yet finished tearing the Conservative party apart.

Andalublue · Jun 18, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
The EU has not yet finished tearing the Conservative party apart.

You didn't just say that, did you IC? The EU is tearing the Tories apart!?! There was me thinking they were doing it to themselves. The victim mentality is strong here, unless what you meant to say was "the Conservative party has not yet finished tearing itself apart over the EU". I'm going to be charitable and assume that that is what you meant to say.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 19, 2017

Andalublue said:
You didn't just say that, did you IC? The EU is tearing the Tories apart!?! There was me thinking they were doing it to themselves. The victim mentality is strong here, unless what you meant to say was "the Conservative party has not yet finished tearing itself apart over the EU". I'm going to be charitable and assume that that is what you meant to say.

No I don't mean the EU has some dastardly ploy, we have enough "dastards" in the Conservative party as it is. I'd like to donate Michael Gove, Andrea Leadsom and Ian Duncan Smith to any 3rd world country seeking some nasty guys for ridicule.

The subject of the EU has not yet finished tearing the Conservative party apart.

Andalublue · Jun 19, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
No I don't mean the EU has some dastardly ploy, we have enough "dastards" in the Conservative party as it is. I'd like to donate Michael Gove, Andrea Leadsom and Ian Duncan Smith to any 3rd world country seeking some nasty guys for ridicule.

The subject of the EU has not yet finished tearing the Conservative party apart.

Yup. That's what I thought you meant.

Departing from our partisan to-and-fro for a moment, there are some Tory figures I hold in some regard, while not exactly being at one with them on such a lot of things. I like Crispin Blunt, Rory Stewart, Ed Vaizey, and even Philip Hammond, although I think he's in a bit over his head. I've talked about David Davies in another reply to you a few minutes ago and, despite thinking she's being hugely over-hyped by those looking for crumbs of comfort post-election, Ruth Davidson seems at least not an ideologue.

John Major, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are decent, honest and hugely experienced figures the modern Conservative Party seem to have turned on and rejected, but they hark back to a Tory Party that actually did believe in One Nation and an open-minded, internationalist ethos. Sad that the people running the party today are mediocrities and zealots.

Hatuey · Jun 19, 2017

DarkWizard12 said:
I just told you how. The pro-brexit vote was consolidated(initially) with the tories, that's why they led by so much when she called the election and why it made sense for her to seek to solidify her majority. The remain vote was split between Labour, Lib Dems, and SNP, and labour was unpopular because many people didn't think that they, being the main opposition party, were truly against brexit. Only the lib dems and SNP sought to remain in their party platform. Think of it like Jill stein taking votes away from Hillary, except by greater margins and well...more Jill steins around.

Of course, however, once the conservative manifesto came out, it was no less about brexit and more about public services and the aptly named "dementia tax", her u-turn, etc. That's why you had so many UKIP voters in the northeast vote for labour instead.

A year longer than you.

Lmao, all of that word salad ignores one simple fact: Brexit was a referendum. Please understand that focusing on the specific issue that they couldn't even get the numbers you're saying they could, would have essentially left them with either weaker results than this election, or the gunshot to the face she gave herself now.

Please understand that Brexit just isn't all that popular?

This was sent from Putin's computer using Donald's credentials.

DarkWizard12 · Jun 19, 2017

Hatuey said:
Lmao, all of that word salad ignores one simple fact: Brexit was a referendum.

Yes, it was a referendum, go on....

Please understand that focusing on the specific issue that they couldn't even get the numbers you're saying they could,

That's why the Lib dems, the one party to run to Remain, gained so many seats.....oh wait...

would have essentially left them with either weaker results than this election, or the gunshot to the face she gave herself now.

They got 51% of the vote. Any party that gets 51% of the vote in the UK wins by a landslide. Not even Tony Blair in his 400 seat landslides got 51% of the vote. Labour did nothing to consolidate the anti-brexit vote and the lib dems lost seats. Apparantly, remaining in the EU is not what UK voters want.

Please understand that Brexit just isn't all that popular?

You realize Jeremy Corbyn is a eurosceptic, right? That's why he couldn't run on it, and as long as the campaign was about brexit, labour had no excitement. Had she made it about brexit, she would have destroyed labor and possibly would have seen the Libdems become the main opposition. It just doesn't seem to play out that the EU is so popular.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 20, 2017

Andalublue said:
Yup. That's what I thought you meant.

Departing from our partisan to-and-fro for a moment, there are some Tory figures I hold in some regard, while not exactly being at one with them on such a lot of things. I like Crispin Blunt, Rory Stewart, Ed Vaizey, and even Philip Hammond, although I think he's in a bit over his head. I've talked about David Davies in another reply to you a few minutes ago and, despite thinking she's being hugely over-hyped by those looking for crumbs of comfort post-election, Ruth Davidson seems at least not an ideologue.

John Major, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are decent, honest and hugely experienced figures the modern Conservative Party seem to have turned on and rejected, but they hark back to a Tory Party that actually did believe in One Nation and an open-minded, internationalist ethos. Sad that the people running the party today are mediocrities and zealots.

I have no disagreement with you there, it's one of the reasons I voted Lib-Dem in the GE.

Will Rea talked about the ugly turd of Brexit that he didn't want Labour to deal with, in a way the forthcoming disaster will see moderate Conservatism come back when the hard Brexiteers are finally discredited. Not that they will change their position as it will always be the EU's fault.

May - can't fathom her. I think her childlessness leaves her cold to family issues at both ends of the age spectrum as we saw with some of the poor policies in the manifesto. She embraced the hardest of Brexits almost with a "you voted for this medicine and I'm damn well going to make you take it" kind of approach.

Andalublue · Jun 20, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
May - can't fathom her. I think her childlessness leaves her cold to family issues

There are plenty of people out there with cold, hard pitiless attitudes to the less fortunate and vulnerable who have multiple kids and big families. That's a bit too reductionist an explanation for my taste.

joG · Jun 20, 2017

Infinite Chaos said:
I have no disagreement with you there, it's one of the reasons I voted Lib-Dem in the GE.

Will Rea talked about the ugly turd of Brexit that he didn't want Labour to deal with, in a way the forthcoming disaster will see moderate Conservatism come back when the hard Brexiteers are finally discredited. Not that they will change their position as it will always be the EU's fault.

May - can't fathom her. I think her childlessness leaves her cold to family issues at both ends of the age spectrum as we saw with some of the poor policies in the manifesto. She embraced the hardest of Brexits almost with a "you voted for this medicine and I'm damn well going to make you take it" kind of approach.

May be the initial anti-Brexiteer that switched but doesn't really want it. Cannot say so, but she can act in a way that makes it less likely to be of the hard type and maybe even made to unravel. I doubt the latter, but the offers are coming in from the EU in any event.

Infinite Chaos · Jun 20, 2017

joG said:
May be the initial anti-Brexiteer that switched but doesn't really want it. ~

No, she was very lacklustre in her support for "Remain." My suspicion is she only did it for support of the Cameron Govt as Conservatives tend to be loyal when in Govt (though Thatcher and Major will tell you of their own "bastards")

Andalublue said:
There are plenty of people out there with cold, hard pitiless attitudes to the less fortunate and vulnerable who have multiple kids and big families. That's a bit too reductionist an explanation for my taste.

No, not just her views on spending in schools but her faux pas on the dementia tax. Those are things that a parent or family person would naturally have some thought for. I don't mean (in case you're thinking) I wish to include homosexual and lesbian people as being similar to May.

Election 2017: Tories to be largest party - exit poll

Hatuey

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DarkWizard12

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Hatuey

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