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Trump administration nearing completion of Cuba policy review: Sources

rocket88 said:
Trump doesn't have a coherent foreign policy. Neither did Obama really. Bush did, I disagreed with it, but at least it was there.
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Trump probably has not yet learned the names of other countries.

The idiot's foreign policy so far is to kiss the asses of Putin and Duterte.
 
Well, Trump has pissed off our closest Central European Ally, while blowing kisses to the Saudis and Putin. Trump does not understand geopolitics, that much is clear.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Oh really? We "didnt get anything in exchange from Cuba?" https://www.thenation.com/article/t...normalization-with-cuba-heres-whats-at-stake/
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From your citation:

  1. reopened their embassies
  2. renewed direct commercial air travel
  3. re-established limited trade relations
  4. re-instituted direct mail services
  5. fostered a formal diplomatic framework for ongoing negotiations on issues of mutual interest as well as on issues of complex differences
    1. such as human rights
    2. compensation for expropriated properties
  6. The president has used his executive authority to poke substantial holes in the long-standing economic embargo, making it possible for major US companies such as Starwood Hotels and Resorts and, most recently, Google, to do business in Havana.

I'm not seeing anything that's to the advantage of the US here. I'm seeing greater currency and value flowing to Cuba, and nothing flowing back.

1. US expense
2. Meh. Who's paying for the airfare? Cubans have no money
3. US cash flowing into Cuba, the Cubans have no money
4. Direct mail for Miami Cubans to send remittances to Cuba. Yeah, taht a US cash outflow again
5.1 No guarantees that the Cuban dictatorship is going to comply with anything
5.2 In who's imagination. The Cuban government owns everything.
6. If private business wants it spend huge sums of money in Cuba for basic infrastructure in order to do their business there, fine. But again, US cash outflow to Cuba.

So, yeah, what's in it for the US? So far, I don't see it. Isn't an agreement supposed to give both sides something that they want or need? I only see Cuba's needs and wants being given by the US. What does the US get out of it?
 
I'm not seeing anything that's to the advantage of the US here. I'm seeing greater currency and value flowing to Cuba, and nothing flowing back.
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Lets go through this
1. US expense
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reopened their embassies
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Direct diplomatic ties thus increasing dialogue on day to day state business between the two countries.

2. Meh. Who's paying for the airfare? Cubans have no money
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renewed direct commercial air travel
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Does not matter. Wouldnt you think increased commercial activity is a good thing? " Major airlines, cruise lines, telecom companies, hotel groups, travel agencies, Hollywood studios, multinational banks, pharmaceutical firms, and agriculture corporations, among other US enterprises, are expanding commercial ventures in Cuba."

3. US cash flowing into Cuba, the Cubans have no money
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re-established limited trade relations
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I thought one would like to support creation and support of small business and various other forms of "private industry" and "local investment"? " nearly one-third of the Cuban workforce has moved off the state payroll and into the growing and increasingly dynamic private sector. US engagement with Cuba supports the transformative success of the cuentapropistas—small-business entrepreneurs such as taxi drivers, mechanics, hair stylists, tour guides, artists, chefs, and thousands of apartment owners who are listing their homes on AirBnB. Obama’s opening has led to a flow of remittances from Cuban-Americans to relatives on the island, underwriting small-business development; an influx of tourists who spend money on various private sector services in Cuba; and new business relations with US companies who want to buy Cuban goods or build a presence on the island. "
And the expansion of another market for US business to invest and export into to... Why again are you against this again?

4. Direct mail for Miami Cubans to send remittances to Cuba. Yeah, taht a US cash outflow again
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re-instituted direct mail services
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:doh Yea postage for mail services is terrible for America :roll:

5.1 No guarantees that the Cuban dictatorship is going to comply with anything
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fostered a formal diplomatic framework for ongoing negotiations on issues of mutual interest as well as on issues of complex differences
such as human rights
compensation for expropriated properties
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No guarantees that the US is going to comply with anything. Welcome to international politics and international dialogue.
5.2 In who's imagination. The Cuban government owns everything.
The president has used his executive authority to poke substantial holes in the long-standing economic embargo, making it possible for major US companies such as Starwood Hotels and Resorts and, most recently, Google, to do business in Havana.
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Apparently you havent heard of the economic reforms that have been going on in the country. Hell, its even mentioned in the article I posted.

6. If private business wants it spend huge sums of money in Cuba for basic infrastructure in order to do their business there, fine. But again, US cash outflow to Cuba.
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:doh So now you are of the position that investment is bad?

So, yeah, what's in it for the US? So far, I don't see it. Isn't an agreement supposed to give both sides something that they want or need? I only see Cuba's needs and wants being given by the US. What does the US get out of it?
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You just went over it but instead diluted it to a simple point of "US cash out of the US is bad" :lamo
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Lets go through this


Direct diplomatic ties thus increasing dialogue on day to day state business between the two countries.



Does not matter. Wouldnt you think increased commercial activity is a good thing? " Major airlines, cruise lines, telecom companies, hotel groups, travel agencies, Hollywood studios, multinational banks, pharmaceutical firms, and agriculture corporations, among other US enterprises, are expanding commercial ventures in Cuba."



I thought one would like to support creation and support of small business and various other forms of "private industry" and "local investment"? " nearly one-third of the Cuban workforce has moved off the state payroll and into the growing and increasingly dynamic private sector. US engagement with Cuba supports the transformative success of the cuentapropistas—small-business entrepreneurs such as taxi drivers, mechanics, hair stylists, tour guides, artists, chefs, and thousands of apartment owners who are listing their homes on AirBnB. Obama’s opening has led to a flow of remittances from Cuban-Americans to relatives on the island, underwriting small-business development; an influx of tourists who spend money on various private sector services in Cuba; and new business relations with US companies who want to buy Cuban goods or build a presence on the island. "
And the expansion of another market for US business to invest and export into to... Why again are you against this again?



:doh Yea postage for mail services is terrible for America :roll:



No guarantees that the US is going to comply with anything. Welcome to international politics and international dialogue.

Apparently you havent heard of the economic reforms that have been going on in the country. Hell, its even mentioned in the article I posted.


:doh So now you are of the position that investment is bad?


You just went over it but instead diluted it to a simple point of "US cash out of the US is bad" :lamo
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A detailed and thorough reply, much appreciated, but it still doesn't address what in this deal is in the US interests. Almost sounds like it's another Puerto Rico in waiting.
 
Nickyjo said:
Oppression and human rights violations are not acceptable, whether in Cuba, Russia or Saudi Arabia. Why not have the same policy towards all three countries? Who knows, Cuba might have oil and room for a Trump hotel.
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Well, for kids who weren't alive, or maybe their parents weren't alive, there was this thing called the Cuban Missile crisis, which got things off to a rather poor start.

I do think the policy of isolation went on for longer than necessary, but when the Regime of Castro is still attacking it's own citizens, it seems logical to review the agreement the Obama Administration put in place.

Russia used to be the USSR. As a child, I grew up hiding under my desk on the last Friday of every month, as we practiced for death by Nuc. Things have changed a bit there. Saudi Arabia? Well, are you suggesting the United States apply a religious test to countries and determine who we want to have relations with depending on the outcome?
 
ocean515 said:
Makes one wonder why President Obama changed the status with Cuba, doesn't it?
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If anything it made it more consistent with the status quo in regards to our foreign policy...
 
eohrnberger said:
A detailed and thorough reply, much appreciated, but it still doesn't address what in this deal is in the US interests. Almost sounds like it's another Puerto Rico in waiting.
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:doh :doh So in your opinion opening of foreign markets for US companies is a bad thing. Glad you are on record. :thumbs:
 
TheDemSocialist said:
If anything it made it more consistent with the status quo in regards to our foreign policy...
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Not really.

Again, I admit it was probably time to end the Cuba thing. However, given the EX Presidents record on agreements, I still don't see any problem with a review.

Perhaps President Trump can hold the despotic regimes feet a little closer to the fire in terms of rights and treatment of all it's citizens. Cuba has everything to lose, while the US has nothing to lose.
 
ocean515 said:
Not really.

Again, I admit it was probably time to end the Cuba thing. However, given the EX Presidents record on agreements, I still don't see any problem with a review.

Perhaps President Trump can hold the despotic regimes feet a little closer to the fire in terms of rights and treatment of all it's citizens. Cuba has everything to lose, while the US has nothing to lose.
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1.)The US does have something to loose
2.)What "benefits" are for the US in this?
 
ocean515 said:
There have been numerous reports of the Government arresting dissidents and clamping down on people attempting to voice their concerns.

These should be viewed as a problem by any US administration and certainly warrant a review of the policies and agreement that the Obama Administration put in place.

Of course, if oppression and human rights violations are acceptable, then I can see why some would take offense to the Trump Administrations review and potential changes to policy towards Cuba.
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You can travel to North Korea if you want. It looks stupid to pretend that your government not allowing you to travel to Cuba is because of some altruistic, human-rights reasons. That's just one example, too. Want tickets to Somalia? Red China? Zimbabwe?
Yeah, right. "If human rights violations are acceptable..."
If conservatives had independent thought processes instead of lock-step obedience...
 
ocean515 said:
Not really.

Again, I admit it was probably time to end the Cuba thing. However, given the EX Presidents record on agreements, I still don't see any problem with a review.

Perhaps President Trump can hold the despotic regimes feet a little closer to the fire in terms of rights and treatment of all it's citizens. Cuba has everything to lose, while the US has nothing to lose.
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Cuba has nothing to lose. What can you take away from them? Do you think they've been lined up on the beach, gazing north and pining for Americans to come back since 1960? Yeah, the collapse of the Soviet Union was a setback but
they're doing just fine.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
1.)The US does have something to loose
2.)What "benefits" are for the US in this?
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What does the US have to lose if it adjusted the agreement the previous administration made with the Castro regime? I truly can't imagine anything.

What it has to gain by pushing Cuba to stop abusing it's citizens, is the satisfaction it can use it's diplomatic and economic advantage to improve the lives of the Cubans living under the crushing dominance of the Castro regime.
 
Grand Mal said:
You can travel to North Korea if you want. It looks stupid to pretend that your government not allowing you to travel to Cuba is because of some altruistic, human-rights reasons. That's just one example, too. Want tickets to Somalia? Red China? Zimbabwe?
Yeah, right. "If human rights violations are acceptable..."
If conservatives had independent thought processes instead of lock-step obedience...
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LOL

I have to believe you actually thought you made a rational, mature, argument here. Considering how far off the mark you were, I'd be concerned if I were you.

What does travel have to do with changes in economic policy? I've made no mention of travel, yet you bring it up. Why is that?

Economic policy, meaning investments, trade, etc., is the real issue, and with the normal abuses any socialist/communist regime must terrorize it's citizens with still occurring, why not review and threaten to change policy?

Perhaps you could address that rather than stumbling over some crude attempt to insult me.
 
Grand Mal said:
Cuba has nothing to lose. What can you take away from them? Do you think they've been lined up on the beach, gazing north and pining for Americans to come back since 1960? Yeah, the collapse of the Soviet Union was a setback but
they're doing just fine.
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I have no doubt they're doing just fine for an oppressed, threatened, poverty riddled society living under a backwards totalitarian regime.

But given the number of people who have risked their lives to get here, I'm thinking your claim they are doing just fine may not be all that accurate.
 
ocean515 said:
LOL

I have to believe you actually thought you made a rational, mature, argument here. Considering how far off the mark you were, I'd be concerned if I were you.

What does travel have to do with changes in economic policy? I've made no mention of travel, yet you bring it up. Why is that?

Economic policy, meaning investments, trade, etc., is the real issue, and with the normal abuses any socialist/communist regime must terrorize it's citizens with still occurring, why not review and threaten to change policy?

Perhaps you could address that rather than stumbling over some crude attempt to insult me.
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Okay, technically it's always been legal for Americans to travel to Cuba, you just weren't allowed to spend one dollar there.
Your claim that the embargo is in place for humanitarian reasons, because of the human rights record of the government, is just bogus. The embargo's in place because Castro nationalized American-owned industries in Cuba, and sought alignment with the Soviet Union after he couldn't sell sugar to Coca-Cola anymore. That crap about 'we don't trade with Cuba because they're so mean to their people' is what your schools tell twelve-year-olds. A sixteen-year-old might ask, "Why do we trade with China then?" but he'd probably be disciplined.
 
ocean515 said:
I have no doubt they're doing just fine for an oppressed, threatened, poverty riddled society living under a backwards totalitarian regime.

But given the number of people who have risked their lives to get here, I'm thinking your claim they are doing just fine may not be all that accurate.
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No beggars, no street prostitution, every child going to school, wearing the school uniform, everyone with free medical, free dental, free education, everyone working and housed and fed,- ever been to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic? That's what you should compare Cuba to.
No, it's not a 'socialist paradise', there's no such thing, but the oppression and poverty has been enormously exaggerated in America. I've been there twice, and I don't mean an all-inclusive in Varadero. I mean a couple nights in Havana and then rent a car and hit the road. Eat in paladares (private homes that seat up to twelve paying guests for dinner), stay in casas particulaire (private homes with a separate suite for paying guests). They're poor, by American standards, though there's city neighbourhoods and rural counties that look as poor as any third-world place on any continent, and they don't have the degree of personal freedom you have, but they're far better off then some landless peasant in Guatamala or some cane worker in Haiti or Jamaica.
 
Grand Mal said:
Okay, technically it's always been legal for Americans to travel to Cuba, you just weren't allowed to spend one dollar there.
Your claim that the embargo is in place for humanitarian reasons, because of the human rights record of the government, is just bogus. The embargo's in place because Castro nationalized American-owned industries in Cuba, and sought alignment with the Soviet Union after he couldn't sell sugar to Coca-Cola anymore. That crap about 'we don't trade with Cuba because they're so mean to their people' is what your schools tell twelve-year-olds. A sixteen-year-old might ask, "Why do we trade with China then?" but he'd probably be disciplined.
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Where are you getting all this stuff you're claiming I've said?

Having lived through the Cuban Missile crisis, and been exposed to the history of Cuba, I'm well aware of the reasons for the actions taken when Castro took control.

I've been referring to current events and the status of the relationship Obama changed while in the White House. Abuses continue, and as a result, it makes sense to review the current agreement.
 
Grand Mal said:
No beggars, no street prostitution, every child going to school, wearing the school uniform, everyone with free medical, free dental, free education, everyone working and housed and fed,- ever been to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic? That's what you should compare Cuba to.
No, it's not a 'socialist paradise', there's no such thing, but the oppression and poverty has been enormously exaggerated in America. I've been there twice, and I don't mean an all-inclusive in Varadero. I mean a couple nights in Havana and then rent a car and hit the road. Eat in paladares (private homes that seat up to twelve paying guests for dinner), stay in casas particulaire (private homes with a separate suite for paying guests). They're poor, by American standards, though there's city neighbourhoods and rural counties that look as poor as any third-world place on any continent, and they don't have the degree of personal freedom you have, but they're far better off then some landless peasant in Guatamala or some cane worker in Haiti or Jamaica.
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Bull. Ridiculous to try and attempt to sell such soiled goods.

People by the thousands have been risking everything, including their lives, to escape the desolation and abuse they have been shackled to since Castro came to power. They've been doing it right up to the point when Obama shut the door on them.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/economist-explains-21
 
Cardinal said:
Trump is against opening up relations with Cuba because Obama was for it. Let's not pretend this goes any deeper than that.

Trump and the Republicans are a garbage party with no principles. It is morally and philosophically bankrupt.
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Reactionaries. When a situation arrives that they need to address, just think of what a 10 year old would do when asked... take those results to vegas and bet on it.
 
chuckiechan said:
I don't think you understand US policy and goals.

When you stay at a hotel in Cuba you pay in US dollars, that is then converted into worthless Cuban pesos. Cuba taps your phones if you are a person of consequence, and often searches your room when you are out. It's illegal, but the best thing you can do for Cuba, is pay everything in cash you can in greenbacks - restaurants, taxi's, etc. and get greenbacks into the economy. Just don't get caught. Usually you get slapped around and robbed, but things can get worse.

Politically, is a gulag with a tottering police state waiting for Raul to die so the administrative Mafia can take power and you'll have an even more brutal dictatorship.
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Yep... just like it was before the Castros. Out of the frying pan and into the frier.
 
Grand Mal said:
No beggars, no street prostitution, every child going to school, wearing the school uniform, everyone with free medical, free dental, free education, everyone working and housed and fed,- ever been to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic? That's what you should compare Cuba to.
No, it's not a 'socialist paradise', there's no such thing, but the oppression and poverty has been enormously exaggerated in America. I've been there twice, and I don't mean an all-inclusive in Varadero. I mean a couple nights in Havana and then rent a car and hit the road. Eat in paladares (private homes that seat up to twelve paying guests for dinner), stay in casas particulaire (private homes with a separate suite for paying guests). They're poor, by American standards, though there's city neighbourhoods and rural counties that look as poor as any third-world place on any continent, and they don't have the degree of personal freedom you have, but they're far better off then some landless peasant in Guatamala or some cane worker in Haiti or Jamaica.
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Have you ever thought that what they show Canadian visitors may not be what it's actually like for the people without connections and western currency who have to live there?

People wouldn't be risking their lives in rickety boats if Cuba was such a paradise to live in.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Have you ever thought that what they show Canadian visitors may not be what it's actually like for the people without connections and western currency who have to live there?

People wouldn't be risking their lives in rickety boats if Cuba was such a paradise to live in.
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Nobody showed us anything. We rented a car and went where we wanted to go. We saw the back streets, we traveled down the rural roads, we saw the horse-drawn buses in Cienfuegos and the guys hand-rolling cigars to sell to tourists and gagged on the pollution in Havana.
I don't know what you were taught in school but I can guess. Yeah, a lot of them will risk crossing 80 miles of water to get to the US. We get Guatemalans here who passed through the US- know how far they traveled to get to your borders?
And back off with the 'such a paradise' crap. If you need to put words in my mouth to make a point, I'll step back and you write my posts and respond to them.
 
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