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Merkel: Europe can no longer rely on US and Britain

Merkel is correct. The UK clearly does not want to be part of Europe or the world in general with their highly nationalistic isolationist politics going on at the moment. I guess they have not yet realised that Empire is not possible any more. This can be repaired as long as the UK starts to realise that it is not the world power it believes it is.

As for the US. Europe - US relations have been on a downward spiral for decades since the end of the cold war. Bush Jr did a lot of damage with his illegal Iraq war. Obama improved it some what, but the spying crap hurt him as well.. and now we have the Donald.

Threatening German car makers and Germany is idiotic since most German cars sold in the US are made in... the US by US workers. His inability to understand basic trade and so much more, is hurting the US stance even more, not only with Europe but the rest of the planet as well. But guessing that was Putins plan all along.
 
Merkel is correct. The UK clearly does not want to be part of Europe or the world in general with their highly nationalistic isolationist politics going on at the moment. I guess they have not yet realised that Empire is not possible any more. This can be repaired as long as the UK starts to realise that it is not the world power it believes it is.

As for the US. Europe - US relations have been on a downward spiral for decades since the end of the cold war. Bush Jr did a lot of damage with his illegal Iraq war. Obama improved it some what, but the spying crap hurt him as well.. and now we have the Donald.

Threatening German car makers and Germany is idiotic since most German cars sold in the US are made in... the US by US workers. His inability to understand basic trade and so much more, is hurting the US stance even more, not only with Europe but the rest of the planet as well. But guessing that was Putins plan all along.

You're right about Bush II. After Obama's election, world leaders sent out responses that they're ready to work with the US again. Trump is like that on steroids even without starting a war, just alienating everyone except Putin and Taiwan and Saudi

In actual fact, if Trump doesn't agree to the Paris deal, that will be a huge sign that the US is good for nothing to Europe and it's time to move on

She's obviously scheming though too when it comes to the UK. An EU led totally by Germany is what she wants. It could still be fairly prosperous and functional and she would get all the credit as the isolationists founder
 
You raise some good points there. Indeed, Congresspeople are often expected to "bring home the bacon" and often times they do this via defense spending.

The armed forces are typically viewed as a sacred cow, but they are not above inefficient spending, as SouthernDemocrat reminded us earlier.



Poland is in NATO now. Lithuania is in NATO now. And there is no sane reason to kick them or other members out or to cheat them out of our promise to them. It makes America look weak when Donald talks about doing so in the way that he has.

There's 28 countries in NATO today. More than enough for Europe and NATO to take care of their own security needs. That is if they want to? Their first choice of course is to let the United States defend them. 75 years is enough. Trump is irrelevant in this. The U.S. should have told Europe back when the USSR broke a part and the Warsaw Pack disbanded, we're through with NATO. If you want to keep it, European Countries, you do so on your own. NATO's mission was to ensure the freedom of Western Europe against the USSR and the Warsaw Pack. Once they were gone, NATO should have went too. Western Europe then should have picked up the mantle for their on defense.
 
"Europe can no longer rely on US and Britain"

Excellent. We can pull our troops out of Germany and use the money to support something here at home like a tax reform. It is nonsensical to be paying for the defense of a wealthy country. In fact it is unconscionable.
 
"Europe can no longer rely on US and Britain"

Excellent. We can pull our troops out of Germany and use the money to support something here at home like a tax reform. It is nonsensical to be paying for the defense of a wealthy country. In fact it is unconscionable.

Your fair choice - would be no problem for me. Who am I to tell others how much money they have to afford for war and how much for peace.
 
The US uses 3.38% because it starts wars outside its NATO obligations. Most of the US military budget goes to this. Almost all of the Europeans military budgets go to NATO obligations.. Even the US does not meet its obligations if the non NATO crap is taken out of the math.

I just proved you wrong. the US paid 3.63%.
ol here it is Denmark, 1.17%.

so why can't you meet your agreement that you made with other countries?
instead of deflecting that other people pay more than you?

interesting I have to say.

Only 5 of 28 NATO countries are paying agreed-upon amount on defense - Business Insider
 
I passed german clas with flying colors but fail to remember 99.9% of german due to being high/drunk through the whole semester, but doesn't frau mean wife in german? so why is it wife merkel????????
Frau means both woman and Mrs.

Wife would be Ehefrau (Gattin being more old fashioned).
 
I just proved you wrong. the US paid 3.63%.
ol here it is Denmark, 1.17%.

so why can't you meet your agreement that you made with other countries?
instead of deflecting that other people pay more than you?

interesting I have to say.

Only 5 of 28 NATO countries are paying agreed-upon amount on defense - Business Insider


Reviewing the above claim, even Mattis only said that the 5 countries "made the goal". The goal is non-binding, and not due to be reached until 2024 anyway.

NATO funding goal is 2% of a member's GNP, mostly met in terms of deployment of troops and resources, with members bearing that cost. A small part of the contribution is direct, defraying the expenses of maintaining the NATO Command structure, HQ and running costs.
The USA spends more militarily than the next ten countries combined. It follows that in times of peace, you'll have more men and materiel kicking about than you'll know what to do with, and spreading them around the world is one way to not have them cluttering up the place at home, where people might come around to the horrifying notion that they weren't actually needed! Maybe other NATO members have different priorities than maintaining a bloated expensive military when they have more urgent needs.
 
The lack of understanding being demonstrated by the usual suspects in this thread is hilarious. As has been pointed out by numerous people, despite not penetrating into some of the thicker skulls, Germany does not "owe" America a cent, that's not how the agreement works. Part of the reason people are laughing at you guys is because Trump is walking around like a collections agent, also demonstrating his lack of understanding of how the agreement works. The money is a commitment to percentage of GDP to spend on National Defense... As much as Trump would like the American military to be a mercenary asset to sell to the rest of the world, that's not what the intent of NATO was.

So, basically, America spending more than the 2% is A) totally voluntary, and independent of any NATO obligations or agreements, and B) totally understandable, because unlike Germany, America's foreign policy methodology has been way more aggressive and confrontational since WW2 than any of the other NATO allies.

I think that the time is fast approaching, or has come already, where America needs to accept that no one wants to be like them anymore. No one wants giant militaries, and the threat of constant war. No one wants to have the constant friction and chest puffing. And, as American policy seems more and more dedicated to sinking America to the bottom in almost every conceivable way *other* than militarily, why would someone like Germany, who is basically moving in the exact opposite direction, give a damn what America thinks?

I think America should pull out of NATO...and all their trade agreements too. It's like, when you're in your teens, there's that one dude that everyone lets hang out because he's the tough guy and the party animal, and you know no one will mess with you while he's around. But when everyone graduates and becomes an adult, America is the guy that still thinks it's cool to smash beer cans on his head and beats up anyone who looks at his (significantly less attractive than you remember) girlfriend....basically, everyone waits for him to pass out, so they can sneak out and move on to whatever better things life holds, only to find that they didn't really need the dumb bully to begin with. Ah, growing up. :)

Oh, sure, you guys can say "Ya, well, don't come crying to us when Russia or China or North Korea does {insert random scary thing}", and don't worry, we won't...because frankly, given your foreign policy, I think putting some distance between us and you wouldn't be a bad thing. I'd rather work out global differences like adults, without America showing up waving around it's phallic missiles...and without having to apologize for their policy gaffes. You want to talk trash about Germany? America has been a bad ally for much longer, and has increased the risk for all it's allies through it's John Wayne approach to being a world power. Trump was just the straw that broke the camel's back, and if you guys hadn't been such an economic driver for so many years, this would have happened a long time ago. Now that new markets are emerging, and you have Trump threatening to basically make yours worthless, get used to the pushback. Trump's "Make America Great Again" approach is only serving to highlight how far you've fallen.

Oh, and Germany has promised to do the 2% thing until 2024, another brilliant diss by the Germans, by the way, given that's the longest they will have to deal with your current looney. A beautifully German response "Ok, zee child is fussy, lets give him zee cookie until he falls asleep." So on the NATO agreement front, nothing to gripe about.

Fact-checking Trump's tweets: Does Germany owe NATO 'vast sums of money'? - ABC News

lol...
 
"Europe can no longer rely on US and Britain"

Excellent. We can pull our troops out of Germany and use the money to support something here at home like a tax reform. It is nonsensical to be paying for the defense of a wealthy country. In fact it is unconscionable.

You'll still have to pay, house and feed the troops wherever they are, or do you plan to ship them home and dump them and their families on the street?

"We honor your service, **** off and die?"
 
Merkel is correct. The UK clearly does not want to be part of Europe or the world in general with their highly nationalistic isolationist politics going on at the moment. I guess they have not yet realised that Empire is not possible any more. This can be repaired as long as the UK starts to realise that it is not the world power it believes it is.

As for the US. Europe - US relations have been on a downward spiral for decades since the end of the cold war. Bush Jr did a lot of damage with his illegal Iraq war. Obama improved it some what, but the spying crap hurt him as well.. and now we have the Donald.

Threatening German car makers and Germany is idiotic since most German cars sold in the US are made in... the US by US workers. His inability to understand basic trade and so much more, is hurting the US stance even more, not only with Europe but the rest of the planet as well. But guessing that was Putins plan all along.


there is a movie with the title, "Dumb and Dumber" ......... it is about Don Cheeto & Donald Trump :mrgreen:
 
The US uses 3.38% because it starts wars outside its NATO obligations. Most of the US military budget goes to this. Almost all of the Europeans military budgets go to NATO obligations.. Even the US does not meet its obligations if the non NATO crap is taken out of the math.

I am afraid you ignore the way security is structured and who profits from the trade security produces outside the NATO area. How anyone could seriously do that considering the only activation of Article 5 is beyond me unless it is to argue a self interest in free riding or something similarly dishonest.

;)

But say, please do. Do you think that the cost of defense will fall for Europeans, if they decide to treat their treaty obligations like they have the covenants of the Euro Stability Pact?
 
You're right about Bush II. After Obama's election, world leaders sent out responses that they're ready to work with the US again. Trump is like that on steroids even without starting a war, just alienating everyone except Putin and Taiwan and Saudi

In actual fact, if Trump doesn't agree to the Paris deal, that will be a huge sign that the US is good for nothing to Europe and it's time to move on

She's obviously scheming though too when it comes to the UK. An EU led totally by Germany is what she wants. It could still be fairly prosperous and functional and she would get all the credit as the isolationists founder

That is a breathtaking misperception of the post Clinton period. You seem to forget that most Eu members supported Bush in Iraq2.

As to Merkel's scheming, the Brexit referendum was almost certainly influenced by Merkel, when she invited an open ended procession of immigrants into the Eu illegally. It was as obvious that it would negatively impact the referendum as was Schröder's impact of weighing in on Saddam's side in the wmd negotiations with the UNSC. The chancellors cannot have missed the implications.
 
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You'll still have to pay, house and feed the troops wherever they are, or do you plan to ship them home and dump them and their families on the street?

"We honor your service, **** off and die?"

The Fed's could easily move them into other civilian positions within government at far less expense than the costly logistical nightmare they have right now, saving billions.
 
I passed german clas with flying colors but fail to remember 99.9% of german due to being high/drunk through the whole semester, but doesn't frau mean wife in german? so why is it wife merkel????????

No...."Frau" is the term for "woman"....

Frau

woman
der Frau — the woman (nominative)

Same in english as saying Ms. or Mrs.
 
You'll still have to pay, house and feed the troops wherever they are, or do you plan to ship them home and dump them and their families on the street?

"We honor your service, **** off and die?"

Maybe we could station them on the border, and secure the border while we build that 'big, beautiful wall'.....
 
NATO members do pay their share. They owe America nothing.

However they do owe the NATO alliance their fair share of the costs Fortunately the UK is not one of the pansy nations that is skipping out.
 
Germany always does this kind of crap whenever they feel that their share of American taxpayer money is going to be curtailed...

And yet during the cold war, Germany was the first to scream like a little girl if we threatened to pull American troops out of Germany.
 
I just proved you wrong. the US paid 3.63%.
ol here it is Denmark, 1.17%.

Yes and where are Danish troops positioned?

Denmark, and within UN and NATO areas.

Where are US troops positioned?

Iraq, Afghanistan, random dictatorship somewhere in the world. Very few US troops are actually being deployed in a NATO capacity.
 
Merkel is correct. The UK clearly does not want to be part of Europe or the world in general with their highly nationalistic isolationist politics going on at the moment. I guess they have not yet realised that Empire is not possible any more. This can be repaired as long as the UK starts to realise that it is not the world power it believes it is.

As for the US. Europe - US relations have been on a downward spiral for decades since the end of the cold war. Bush Jr did a lot of damage with his illegal Iraq war. Obama improved it some what, but the spying crap hurt him as well.. and now we have the Donald.

Threatening German car makers and Germany is idiotic since most German cars sold in the US are made in... the US by US workers. His inability to understand basic trade and so much more, is hurting the US stance even more, not only with Europe but the rest of the planet as well. But guessing that was Putins plan all along.

Illegal Iraq war? Post the specific statute that you think was violated. Europe made the decisions they made in the lead up to the Iraq war based on their own fears of losing their access to middle east oil, not to mention the shady business deals they had with the Saddam regime. As for German carmakers.....as long as they continue to build plants in the US, like the one in my state, and employ US workers, I don't have a problem with German carmakers.
 
You're right about Bush II. After Obama's election, world leaders sent out responses that they're ready to work with the US again. Trump is like that on steroids even without starting a war, just alienating everyone except Putin and Taiwan and Saudi

Translation: When Obama was elected, European leaders were delighted that the US again elected a president who would kiss their asses. The previous one was Clinton.

In actual fact, if Trump doesn't agree to the Paris deal, that will be a huge sign that the US is good for nothing to Europe and it's time to move on

Translation: Europeans will be very disappointed if the US does not go along with the Paris deal, as will not shoulder the vast financial load of the agreement, primarily on the backs of US taxpayers.


She's obviously scheming though too when it comes to the UK. An EU led totally by Germany is what she wants. It could still be fairly prosperous and functional and she would get all the credit as the isolationists founder

Hitler would be proud.
 
Illegal Iraq war? Post the specific statute that you think was violated. Europe made the decisions they made in the lead up to the Iraq war based on their own fears of losing their access to middle east oil, not to mention the shady business deals they had with the Saddam regime.

A lot of the shady business deals were by US companies, and the US knew Saddam was smuggling out oil for over a decade but did nothing about it because it was going through Jordan and often involved American companies. And it was illegal as the reasoning for the attack was false. Europe made its decisions based on bull**** intelligence from the Americans.. in fact France and Germany did not believe them and did not go after Saddam... guess who was right?

As for German carmakers.....as long as they continue to build plants in the US, like the one in my state, and employ US workers, I don't have a problem with German carmakers.

Tell that to Donald.
 
And yet during the cold war, Germany was the first to scream like a little girl if we threatened to pull American troops out of Germany.

Yeah, I was there then....During Reagan...There was talk of downsizing, and Germany was having a fit....Europeans don't seem to appreciate what the US has done for them, not only in WWII but the decades after, at our expense....And all democrats seem to be upset at is that Trump didn't kiss their ass when informing them that the gravy train is slowing down.....
 
A lot of the shady business deals were by US companies, and the US knew Saddam was smuggling out oil for over a decade but did nothing about it because it was going through Jordan and often involved American companies. And it was illegal as the reasoning for the attack was false. Europe made its decisions based on bull**** intelligence from the Americans.. in fact France and Germany did not believe them and did not go after Saddam... guess who was right?



Tell that to Donald.

All you prove with that skewed recitation of history is that while American's have Europe's back, Europe may not have America's back....For that alone, I say fine, have fun with your own defense.
 
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