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Alabama senate votes to allow church to form own police force

Tanngrisnir said:
Huh? I was born in San Francisco, not Merced.
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i was born in merced. later spent a year in your neck of the woods writing recovery loans for the victims of the northridge quake
from the perspective of an original cali native, was sharing my opinion that your disdain for the south is misplaced

but stay where you are. G_d's country has been found and is getting filled
 
justabubba said:
i was born in merced. later spent a year in your neck of the woods writing recovery loans for the victims of the northridge quake
from the perspective of an original cali native, was sharing my opinion that your disdain for the south is misplaced

but stay where you are. G_d's country has been found and is getting filled
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Ah, I see. My little sister married her HS sweetheart and now lives just outside of Merced, off G street on the way to Snelling. Small world.

Any god who wants it is welcome to the South.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Religious police are just that. A religious institution (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Sihk, Hindu, etc.) that gets the power and authority from the state to form a police force solely for that religious group is a problem. The OP made the statement about Sharia Law as a comparison to what's happening in the OP article, and the outrage by many that they are terrified of one form of religious group law, when this has all the potential to be just as damaging and secretive.
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There's a huge differnece between police working for a church to enforce the community's laws and police working for a church to enforce the church's laws. This is a case of the former, not the latter.
 
Beaudreaux said:
WTF are you talking about? I think you clicked on the wrong post to reply to with that question, because it has nothing to do with me.
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Sorry about that, It was the post right below yours.

Carjosse said:
Letting any organization have a police force that is responsible to no one, what could go go wrong. What is wrong with hiring security guards?
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How do you know that it's responsible to no one?? There's nothing in the article that states that. Do you have a source for this claim that you'd like to share??
 
faithful_servant said:
There's a huge differnece between police working for a church to enforce the community's laws and police working for a church to enforce the church's laws. This is a case of the former, not the latter.
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And I suspect if a mosque formed a police force "to enforce the community's laws" you might have concerns about the latter happening, yes?
 
This should cause a stir of interest in this forum:
ACLU asks for records on plan for Briarwood Church police department

"What does the church want its police officer to do if there's illegal drug use going on in the high school: arrest the kid, or step in, counsel him and put an end to drug use," Marshall said. "It opens the door for the church to be determining who should be prosecuted, who should be let go, all with an eye toward adverse publicity for the church."
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No matter what happens -- keep it in the family(church).

How many pastors, priests, and preachers have committed crimes for years before the cries of the abused were finally listened to? With its own police force, this church has a greatly increased opportunity for keeping misdeeds, in the family
 
faithful_servant said:
There's a huge differnece between police working for a church to enforce the community's laws and police working for a church to enforce the church's laws. This is a case of the former, not the latter.
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We'll see. Normally police are empowered to enforce laws within a geographical area, even if that geographical area is a college campus of a religious college. This, however, appears to be different in that the police are empowered to protect the church and the membership of the church. That concerns me. It has the potential to lead to covering up of crimes by the church or its membership, by an armed force that will have sole jurisdiction. Although state and federal police could come in like they did in Ferguson and other places around the country, they will not come in unless they have probable cause that the local police are compromised. That probable cause may not ever come to light.
 
They can create their own security force to protect their properties, that's fine. The instant they create a police force and start enforcing laws based on their religion, bomb them.
 
Beaudreaux said:
We'll see. Normally police are empowered to enforce laws within a geographical area, even if that geographical area is a college campus of a religious college. This, however, appears to be different in that the police are empowered to protect the church and the membership of the church. That concerns me. It has the potential to lead to covering up of crimes by the church or its membership, by an armed force that will have sole jurisdiction. Although state and federal police could come in like they did in Ferguson and other places around the country, they will not come in unless they have probable cause that the local police are compromised. That probable cause may not ever come to light.
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How did you come to those conclusions???

Also, why is everyone ignoring the part about school and only focusing on the church??
 
faithful_servant said:
How did you come to those conclusions???

Also, why is everyone ignoring the part about school and only focusing on the church??
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That's actually a great question -- We are a country based on a secular government. Schools are secular, churches are sectarian. Giving a sectarian group governmental police powers goes against almost everything our country stands for, and it is, IMHO, a violation of the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause restrictions upon the government.
 
The Man said:
They can create their own security force to protect their properties, that's fine. The instant they create a police force and start enforcing laws based on their religion, bomb them.
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That's been the plan so far for our military, except that this is inside the US, so it won't work this time.
 
Somerville said:
This should cause a stir of interest in this forum:

No matter what happens -- keep it in the family(church).

How many pastors, priests, and preachers have committed crimes for years before the cries of the abused were finally listened to? With its own police force, this church has a greatly increased opportunity for keeping misdeeds, in the family
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Bingo. Read what I've said in previous posts in this thread and you'll see that what the ACLU is concerned about is also what I'm concerned about, plus other aspects.
 
Carjosse said:
Letting any organization have a police force that is responsible to no one, what could go go wrong. What is wrong with hiring security guards?
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It's not as uncommon as you think, for example in the US and Canada most railroad operators, private and public, have police forces. all the freight companies like CSX and BNSF and Union Pacific have their own police officers. Usually private universities in some states can have police officers, hospitals airports and the like.

and let's not forget that units of government with low public accountability like junior taxing districts (ports, transit, etc) can employ cops. to say they're unaccountable is not correct, becoming a commissioned police officers opens you up to civil rights laws, and you lose ability to enforce company policy and now have to enforce state law.
 
Somerville said:
This should cause a stir of interest in this forum:

No matter what happens -- keep it in the family(church).

How many pastors, priests, and preachers have committed crimes for years before the cries of the abused were finally listened to? With its own police force, this church has a greatly increased opportunity for keeping misdeeds, in the family
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No it really doesn't, because a police department would be obligated to report such a thing to an external agency to investigate.
 
I don't know why the church wants to hire cops, it's actually more limiting to be a police officer then a private guard. having done private guard work (at least in WA) and having a job where security was a side duty, it's easy, if someone is being a d!ckhead you can tell them to leave or they're trespassing. if you want to search them, you tell them they're being searched and if they refuse they need to leave or they're trespassing.

whereas a cop needs probable cause to do those kinds of things and enforce, and he can't just use a general declaration "you're trespassing" to make them leave
 
Beaudreaux said:
That's actually a great question -- We are a country based on a secular government. Schools are secular, churches are sectarian. Giving a sectarian group governmental police powers goes against almost everything our country stands for, and it is, IMHO, a violation of the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause restrictions upon the government.
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Lots of schools (especially colleges) have their police forces. Are you saying that because this school is connected to a church, it shouldn't be allowed that same protection??
 
Beaudreaux said:
That's actually a great question -- We are a country based on a secular government. Schools are secular, churches are sectarian. Giving a sectarian group governmental police powers goes against almost everything our country stands for, and it is, IMHO, a violation of the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause restrictions upon the government.
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only insofar as enforcing religious law with the power of the state.
 
This will be thrown out as unconstitutional without question. I just lament that the 24 state senators aren't automatically removed from office and personally held liable when that happens. We really need such a mechanism for the crazies

This would have enabled the catholic church to get away with the mass rape cover up indefinitely
 
chromium said:
This will be thrown out as unconstitutional without question. I just lament that the 24 state senators aren't automatically removed from office and personally held liable when that happens. We really need such a mechanism for the crazies

This would have enabled the catholic church to get away with the mass rape cover up indefinitely
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No it wouldn't have. you're being hyperbolic.

Now the bill likely will have significant court challenges, but not because of the establishment clause issue that the ACLU is bringing up, that's a false issue. there are religious institutions with commissioned police forces in this country already. The biggest problem is that the bill singles out only one religious institution by name permitted to have the police force.

if it were re-written to say for example, "Any non-profit religious institution (non profit institution not mentioning religion is even safer) with a weekly attending membership over 4000 persons with attached educational facilities licensed to provide K-12 education" the bill would sail through the courts being upheld.
 
faithful_servant said:
Lots of schools (especially colleges) have their police forces. Are you saying that because this school is connected to a church, it shouldn't be allowed that same protection??
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I just read the bill and the biggest issue I see is it specifically only authorizes briarwood presbytarian by name, to employ police officers. the bill should've been drafted to allow any institution that meets objective measurable criteria to employ police officers. that is just sloppy lawmaking.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I just read the bill and the biggest issue I see is it specifically only authorizes briarwood presbytarian by name, to employ police officers. the bill should've been drafted to allow any institution that meets objective measurable criteria to employ police officers. that is just sloppy lawmaking.
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I can agree with that. No bill should single out any specific organization. It should clearly define what kind of orgs. it applies to and what they can or cannot do.
 
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