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Le Pen criticized for denying French blame in WWII roundup

Hatuey said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/le-pen-says-france-not-responsible-wwii-roundup-082416118.html



I guess this is a little more tame than flat-out denying that the holocaust happened like her cher pere. I can't see that being too far away though. What a weird world this is where the kids of alleged torturers and trustfund babies are seen as the leaders of many nationalist movements.
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She's a far right lunatic. Meaning if she's not a holocaust denier, she's living right next door to them, mentally speaking.
 
France_Petain_Hitler_Oct_40A_580x384.jpg

After disembarking from Hitler's train on October 24, 1940 and shaking hands with Hitler,
Marshal Pétain declared on French radio “I enter today on the path of Collaboration...”



In the Vel'd'hiv raid (16/17 July 1942), Vichy police rounded up 12,884 Jews including 4,051 children ... which the Gestapo had not asked for.

In total, the Vichy government helped in the deportation of 76,000 Jews. Of these, only 2,500 survived the war.
 
Fishking said:
I'll take that as a "No, you cannot provide an example." You just have some vague accusation of Antisemitism as if that means the French were all on board with extermination camps and would have done it without German influence.
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strawman 1
Well, guess what, Antisemitism wasn't an uncommon thing during that time and if that's all it takes, and we are going to equate that with extermination camps,
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strawman 2
then the U.S. is just as guilty of running extermination camps.
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strawman 3 AND false equivalence.

In other words, your premise is so specious it's meaningless.
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It's arguing in this manner that makes your whole post meaningless.

Puppet French government, hiring puppet French police, encouraging segments of their society to rat out Jews.
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You forgot to put "puppet" in front of society.:roll:

Puppet execution of Laval, anyone?
 
Chagos said:
You DO like black or white (with nothing in between) don't you?

But irrespective of that, anti-semitism was widely spread in France long before WWII.
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I dont doubt that, but the Vichy were not ever going to be allowed to exist if they were unwilling to help with "the Jew problem", and why should we not argue that having the vichy saved Jewish lives because if the Germans had directly controlled the area their would have been many more transports to the East?

What is there here for the French to feel bad about?

And why not talk about it?

Like I said I dont know France very well, but I dont mind conversations pretty much ever, I am fine with Le pen re-starting this one.....all of this "Oh No!, we cant talk about THAT!" makes me pretty positive that this was a good call.
 
Fishking said:
I'll take that as a "No, you cannot provide an example."
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Well, I can't because it wouldn't prove that the French regime did or didn't collaborate with the Germans - which it did and there really is no doubt about that. It's like arguing 'show me this guy murdered other people, before he murdered the people he's accused of murdering' - as if that would prove the person's complicity in the murders you're trying to establish innocence of.

Debating isn't your forte.
 
More French soldiers fought for Vichy France than the Free French Forces. The French resistance did not grow significantly in size until the months leading up to Operation Overlord.

Not every Frenchmen was a supporter of the Nazis, but to pretend antisemitism wasn't a strong force in France is foolish.
 
jmotivator said:
Poor choice of words in that last statement, admittedly
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No, fabrication based on a poorly sourced forum's translation of an article that doesn't seem to exist.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
More French soldiers fought for Vichy France than the Free French Forces. The French resistance did not grow significantly in size until the months leading up to Operation Overlord.

Not every Frenchmen was a supporter of the Nazis, but to pretend antisemitism wasn't a strong force in France is foolish.
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Super, but that is not the point on debate, the question is "Are the French responsible for turning over Jews to the NAZI's or not?".

I say no, they had a gun to their head, they did not do this.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Super, but that is not the point on debate, the question is "Are the French responsible for turning over Jews to the NAZI's or not?".

I say no, they had a gun to their head, they did not do this.
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Many of them did voluntarily. Antisemitism was vibrant in France prior and during WWII. Thousands of French soldiers volunteered to fight with the Nazis.
 
Chagos said:
strawman 1
strawman 2 strawman 3 AND false equivalence.

It's arguing in this manner that makes your whole post meaningless.

You forgot to put "puppet" in front of society.:roll:

Puppet execution of Laval, anyone?
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Sorry that I smashed your premise and now you're complaining about it.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Many of them did voluntarily. Antisemitism was vibrant in France prior and during WWII. Thousands of French soldiers volunteered to fight with the Nazis.
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There was no choice, so there never was the option of voluntary....sure they could have put up resistance, had it been very much resistance the Vichy would have gotten run through the knife and the Germans would take over direct control and more Jews would die....So any resistance would for sure fail so is this a great hill to die on? .......I say no......I say that they did the right thing........ So again, what is there here for the French to feel bad about?

The Germans did this.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
There was no choice, so there never was the option of voluntary.
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Yes, there absoultely was. Thousands of French citizens betrayed their Jewish neighbors for monetary compensation or some kind of reward.


...sure they could have put up resistance, and then very much resistance and the Vichy would have gotten run through the knife and the Germans would take over direct control and more Jews die....again, what is there here for the French to feel bad about?
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Vichy France willingly helped round up and deport Jews and spread antisemetic propaganda. There is literally nothing to argue about, this actually happened.

The Germans did this.
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Blaming it all on the Germans ignore the fact that they had help from hundreds of thousands of Belgians, Dutch, and French who willingly supported the Nazis for their own personal gain.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I dont doubt that, but the Vichy were not ever going to be allowed to exist if they were unwilling to help with "the Jew problem", and why should we not argue that having the vichy saved Jewish lives because if the Germans had directly controlled the area their would have been many more transports to the East?
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Aw ferchrissake. The Vichy regime rounded up more Jews initially than the Germans asked for at the time, its existence took no pressure whatsoever of the Jews.

What did were those heroic Frenchmen and -women that hid Jews FROM the Vichy regime. And those (still alive) are not the ones wishing to stifle this debate nor are their proud children.
What is there here for the French to feel bad about?
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THE French? You mean nations have a homogeneous history? Like everyone within having done exactly the same thing at all times?
And why not talk about it?
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Indeed, why not? Ask Marine.
Like I said I dont know France very well,
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hasn't gone unnoticed
but I dont mind conversations pretty much ever, I am fine with Le pen re-starting this one.....all of this "Oh No!, we cant talk about THAT!" makes me pretty positive that this was a good call.
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Gah, have you still not understood that Marine doesn't want to start it, she wants to stifle it. For good.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Yes, there absoultely was. Thousands of French citizens betrayed their Jewish neighbors for monetary compensation or some kind of reward.




Vichy France willingly helped round up and deport Jews and spread antisemetic propaganda. There is literally nothing to argue about, this actually happened.



Blaming it all on the Germans ignore the fact that they had help from hundreds of thousands of Belgians, Dutch, and French who willingly supported the Nazis for their own personal gain.
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Sounds to me that you have a need for the song and dance, even if that runs against what you are fighting for.

Through cooperation with the force of evil the lives of many Jews were saved.

What the **** is there to bitch about in that?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Sounds to me that you have a need for the song and dance, even if that runs against what you are fighting for.

Through cooperation with the force of evil the lives of many Jews were saved.

What the **** is there to bitch about in that?
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The myth that the Vichy attempted to save Jews is completely false and just that, a myth. On October 3rd, 1940, before even the Nazis themselves had established the Holocaust, Vichy France implemented it's first anti-Jewish legislation. You are literally denying history.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Sounds to me that you have a need for the song and dance, even if that runs against what you are fighting for.

Through cooperation with the force of evil the lives of many Jews were saved.
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NOT ONE !!!!

What the **** is there to bitch about in that?
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Your absolute historical confusion (unless, of course, it's a case of intentional obtuseness here).
 
Chagos said:
NOT ONE !!!!

Your absolute historical confusion (unless, of course, it's a case of intentional obtuseness here).
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I understand that you are giving me the argument that is in "VICHY FRANCE AND THE JEWS ".

I am giving a different argument.

Do you wish to continue?
 
Hatuey said:
No, fabrication based on a poorly sourced forum's translation of an article that doesn't seem to exist.
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I found it and if you have French, here's the link

Quand Le Pen voulait rejoindre les FFI

and if you don't (and as an explanation to others that don't have French) it merely cites the memories of an ex sergeant of the FFI on what occurred when Le Pen tried to join up and, due to his insufficiency of years, was rejected.

And (small but significant detail) bore a life long aversion to the FFI ever since.

As far as providing proof for LePen (16 at the time with the war in France practically over) having been active in the resistance, it's a load of piffle. Well, I mean citing it is, the article obviously just reports.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I understand that you are giving me the argument that is in "VICHY FRANCE AND THE JEWS ".
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I am not referring to that article and I don't need to. Studied the whole matter long enough when I lived in France.

I am giving a different argument.
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I don't see you presenting any substantiated argument (as in worthy of consideration) at all.
Do you wish to continue?
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Like in go foreward?

Judging by what you're presenting here so far, I see little chance of that.
 
Chagos said:
I am not referring to that article and I don't need to. Studied the whole matter long enough when I lived in France.

I don't see you presenting any substantiated argument (as in worthy of consideration) at all.
Like in go foreward?

Judging by what you're presenting here so far, I see little chance of that.
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You could be nicer.

-1 2 U
 
Koke said:
No, I do.

It's just she hasn't said anything that would warrant a title of "National Socialist" or a sympathizer of Hitler's regime, lol.

Regardless what she's referencing here is not racist or bigoted or xenophobic or whatever.
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You don't know. She is her father's daughter.

And yes there were those French who were German sympathizers and turned in Jews.
 
Chagos said:
I found it and if you have French, here's the link

Quand Le Pen voulait rejoindre les FFI

and if you don't (and as an explanation to others that don't have French) it merely cites the memories of an ex sergeant of the FFI on what occurred when Le Pen tried to join up and, due to his insufficiency of years, was rejected.

And (small but significant detail) bore a life long aversion to the FFI ever since.

As far as providing proof for LePen (16 at the time with the war in France practically over) having been active in the resistance, it's a load of piffle. Well, I mean citing it is, the article obviously just reports.
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Good on ya! Better than jmotivator. My argument remains the same based on what I can make out (rusty French). It's practically "he once tried to get in, we didn't let him, he hated us ever since". It doesn't bode well for the argument that Le Pen was a "supporter" or worked for the IFF and therefor he is not an old, fat anti-semite.

I think it made the argument that Le Pen was rejected by a few militant Jews when the war was practically finished.... and he has minimized the Holocaust ever since.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
The myth that the Vichy attempted to save Jews is completely false and just that, a myth. On October 3rd, 1940, before even the Nazis themselves had established the Holocaust, Vichy France implemented it's first anti-Jewish legislation. You are literally denying history.
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In fact those Jews that survived in Vichy controlled France (and later, when the Germans took that over as well), mostly did so by the sense of decency and the courage of those French that hid them (mostly the children) or established regular "rat lines" for their escape to Spain, Switzerland or even Italy (before it also became occupied by Germany).

At risk to their own lives

Interesting fact wrt the last one, even under Mussolini it actively hindered deportations of Jews to Germany despite German pressure.

With France complaining to Germany about it providing a point of refuge for those Jews that made it there from France.

Nice example of French not fearing the discussion (unlike Marine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chambon-sur-Lignon
 
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