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Trump is cracking down on the H-1B visa program that Silicon Valley loves

Chomsky said:
B.S. (far too often).

I've seen firsthand how this works.

If there are regional discrepancies, a little free-market action (localized rising wages) will take care of much of the problem.

I saw 85K+ software engineers replaced by 27K Indian H1B's. And my geographical area had great schools and no critical shortage of graduates. It just didn't have American grads willing to work for 27K.

And the ultimate slap in the face? The 85K+ Americans had to train the new Indians in order to get their full severance! It was hell. And overnight the department went predominately Indian. Several years later when the dept management went Indian, the Indianization of the dept was complete.

So I don't buy this theory at all. There may be some extremely narrow skill-sets where we don't have it available in the States, with Oppy's Trinity nuclear bomb or Von Braun's Saturn rocket as examples. But sorry, when this went down above C programmers in the Unix environment were ubiquitous enough - if one was willing to pay these Americans fairly for the effort, education, and brain-power they possessed.

This sounds like the fallacy of "no Americans will do the jobs the illegals do". Well yeah, Americans did do those very jobs *until illegals* suppressed the wages forcing many Americans out.
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Suppressed wages is the goal of the DNC.
 
Porkuloss said:
I saw that program abused first hand during the 90's and 00's. Not sure how much of a problem it is right now, but more oversight couldn't hurt.
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Yep. Even though I was a teenager at the time I was aware of what was going on, which happened to co-incide with NAFTA I might add. "Geek Sqaud" temporarily became big business as highly skilled tech workers needed some form of employement. Eventually the indignity of the work forced a lot of them out but that's literally how Geek Squad from Best Buy got started. And you better believe Best Buy was paying those highly skilled workers much less than what they were making before.
 
reinoe said:
Yep. Even though I was a teenager at the time I was aware of what was going on, which happened to co-incide with NAFTA I might add. "Geek Sqaud" temporarily became big business as highly skilled tech workers needed some form of employement. Eventually the indignity of the work forced a lot of them out but that's literally how Geek Squad from Best Buy got started. And you better believe Best Buy was paying those highly skilled workers much less than what they were making before.
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There were several things at play there, I think. The "tech bubble" popped in '99 and that caused a lot of layoffs. Higher paid America workers let go first? I'm not positive about that, but it's possible/probable. The housing bubble in the 2000's caused a huge rush on those Big Box stores like Best Buy as people borrowed fantasy money out of their house/ATM's and bought big TV's and such. Those stores did very well for awhile, and I'm certain that some of those displaced tech workers did end up in those gigs. However, I don't personally know any who took those kinds of jobs, even though I know people that were out of work for up to a year.

Another thing that happened was the outsourcing of anything possible to places like India. I had one responsibility for about 2 months that required me to be in a conference call from that linked me with engineers on the west coast and in India. 11:30am for me, 8:30am for CA, and I think 7pm or so in India. Weird.
 
ludin said:
you really don't know what you are talking about do you?

last year Disney laid off their entire IT staff and hired H1b workers for no reason.
just a few months ago another major IT company did the same thing.

why? it is cheaper.
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I never remotely said this doesn't happen. I said the REASON behind it is uneducated trump voters, who elect someone who uses foreign unskilled work in the hopes he'll protect their unskilled jobs, and somehow this IT crap has anything to do with that

You might want to start by learning what i'm saying before accusing me of not knowing what i'm saying
 
DifferentDrummr said:
Agreed. And as I said in the OP, more scrutiny is at least a start.


Only if you rely on large tech companies for your supply of facts.

Besides, the H1-B program does not provide the country with even one worker who can do something that an American tech worker can't. There are other classes of visa for that purpose.
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The proper measure for a xenophobic yet functioning (even though this will kill the tourist industry as it already is) job market is LACK OF workers not whether ANY can do the job. If a company needs 5 programmers and it can only find 2 who are competent at a rate it can afford to pay, there is a lack. This is the same excuse (but a lie, in that case) Trump made for hiring foreigners at mar-o-lago, that he personally couldn't find american waiters.

The fact is lots of skilled workers in IT are leaving the country because they've had enough with the proudly anti intellectual, violent, and needlessly 3rd world culture here. Therefore how do you counter that to supply especially small businesses with the talent they need? You allow some of these indians or whatever who come here for an education to stay, for one

There's no question that larger tech companies use cutthroat methods. There's also no question Trump is targeting them and not his own mar-o-lago or similar unskilled foreign labor for political reasons - they don't vote for or donate to him. And there's also no question that your assessment of "0 need for h1-b" is utterly laughable
 
chromium said:
The proper measure for a xenophobic yet functioning (even though this will kill the tourist industry as it already is) job market is LACK OF workers not whether ANY can do the job. If a company needs 5 programmers and it can only find 2 who are competent at a rate it can afford to pay, there is a lack. This is the same excuse (but a lie, in that case) Trump made for hiring foreigners at mar-o-lago, that he personally couldn't find american waiters.
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Now that's what can correctly be called "utterly laughable."

If the local market rate for programmers is $100k/year, a company can't claim a lack just because it can only afford to pay $20K/year!

The fact is lots of skilled workers in IT are leaving the country because they've had enough with the proudly anti intellectual, violent, and needlessly 3rd world culture here. Therefore how do you counter that to supply especially small businesses with the talent they need? You allow some of these indians or whatever who come here for an education to stay, for one
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Now you're no longer talking about H1-B's, which are explicitly non-immigrant visas. As I implied previously, there are other classes of visas for the world's geniuses.

There's no question that larger tech companies use cutthroat methods. There's also no question Trump is targeting them and not his own mar-o-lago or similar unskilled foreign labor for political reasons - they don't vote for or donate to him. And there's also no question that your assessment of "0 need for h1-b" is utterly laughable
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You're not listening. The H1-B is used ONLY to recruit journeyman workers, and the US has an ample supply of those.
 
chromium said:
I never remotely said this doesn't happen. I said the REASON behind it is uneducated trump voters, who elect someone who uses foreign unskilled work in the hopes he'll protect their unskilled jobs, and somehow this IT crap has anything to do with that

You might want to start by learning what i'm saying before accusing me of not knowing what i'm saying
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Perhaps the reason the poster questioned your knowledge is because you don't seem to understand the difference between adding seasonal staff via an H2B program, versus long term employment under the H1B program.

Seasonal employment is not unusual in places like Florida, because in the winter lots more people go there. Very difficult to find people willing to work for only 4-6 months, and then be out of a job. Same thing happens in the wine making business. There is a major effort when the grapes are picked, and bottled. Then very little happens for months.

You may want to look into that reality, because, unless I missed it, you seem more intent on calling people names than indicating you posses some relevant knowledge on the subject at hand.
 
ocean515 said:
Perhaps the reason the poster questioned your knowledge is because you don't seem to understand the difference between adding seasonal staff via an H2B program, versus long term employment under the H1B program.

Seasonal employment is not unusual in places like Florida, because in the winter lots more people go there. Very difficult to find people willing to work for only 4-6 months, and then be out of a job. Same thing happens in the wine making business. There is a major effort when the grapes are picked, and bottled. Then very little happens for months.

You may want to look into that reality, because, unless I missed it, you seem more intent on calling people names than indicating you posses some relevant knowledge on the subject at hand.
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Yes, "Seasonal employment is not unusual in . . . Florida" but when a local employment agency has a couple hundred people willing to apply for the positions at Mar-a-Lago, one does wonder why Trump continues to hire aliens under the H2-B program.
CareerSource Palm Beach County, a nonprofit job placement agency, says it knows plenty of American citizens willing to work at Mar-a-Lago.

“We have hundreds of qualified candidates and hundreds of job orders for various hospitality positions such as servers, chefs, cooks, bartenders, housekeeping, guest services, spa services, recreation, maintenance and more,” CareerSource spokesman Tom Veenstra said.

While Mar-a-Lago asks the federal government for dozens of H-2B visas every tourist season, the private club has asked CareerSource for help finding a local employee only once in the past decade, Veenstra said. That was a 2015 request for a single banquet server.
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If you read the article, you will find that other private clubs in Palm Beach follow the same pattern.
 
Somerville said:
Yes, "Seasonal employment is not unusual in . . . Florida" but when a local employment agency has a couple hundred people willing to apply for the positions at Mar-a-Lago, one does wonder why Trump continues to hire aliens under the H2-B program.

If you read the article, you will find that other private clubs in Palm Beach follow the same pattern.
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I guess they are not qualified for the job. Job seekers looking for low skilled jobs via a placement agency are usually do so because they have too much baggage to get jobs on their own. That's certainly been my experience.

Seasonal employment is a bitch to fill. I'm quite confident that a majority of businesses catering to vacationing people follow the same process when high season hits, and have been doing it for many years.

Frankly, I think the H2B process is better that the liberals method of filling jobs. You know, the one where they invite people to enter the US illegally and then reward them with all sorts of benefits.
 
ocean515 said:
I guess they are not qualified for the job. Job seekers looking for low skilled jobs via a placement agency are usually do so because they have too much baggage to get jobs on their own. That's certainly been my experience.

Seasonal employment is a bitch to fill. I'm quite confident that a majority of businesses catering to vacationing people follow the same process when high season hits, and have been doing it for many years.

Frankly, I think the H2B process is better that the liberals method of filling jobs. You know, the one where they invite people to enter the US illegally and then reward them with all sorts of benefits.
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If you had bothered to read the linked article you would have read that Mar-a-Lago only ever requested one position to be filled - banquet server. I lived in Palm Beach for several years and came to know some of those who do seasonal work. All of them were Americans who worked New England resorts in the summer and Florida locations in the winter. My point is, there are experienced service workers who are Americans and have managed to make a decent life for themselves.

I believe your last two sentences are more a matter of belief than reality.
 
Somerville said:
If you had bothered to read the linked article you would have read that Mar-a-Lago only ever requested one position to be filled - banquet server. I lived in Palm Beach for several years and came to know some of those who do seasonal work. All of them were Americans who worked New England resorts in the summer and Florida locations in the winter. My point is, there are experienced service workers who are Americans and have managed to make a decent life for themselves.

I believe your last two sentences are more a matter of belief than reality.
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Why do you keep asking whether I read the article? I read it.

So in that vein, if you knew more about hiring and seasonal employment, you'd understand your position is without merit.

How many seasonal workers are needed in Florida?

Why would any business go through the process of getting H2B visas approved if there were a ready supply of temporary workers available to fill the positions available? Perhaps these migrant "New England/Florida" workers aren't willing, or haven't been willing, to commit to the time they were needed.

I know, hate Trump agendas require suspension of objective thought in order to make room for arbitrary and subjective outrage.

As to my last two sentences, I don't know what cave you've been living in, but encouraging and rewarding illegal aliens is the cornerstone of the liberal/socialist progressive parties agenda, so I'm a bit baffled by your denial of it.
 
ocean515 said:
Why do you keep asking whether I read the article? I read it.

So in that vein, if you knew more about hiring and seasonal employment, you'd understand your position is without merit.

How many seasonal workers are needed in Florida?

Why would any business go through the process of getting H2B visas approved if there were a ready supply of temporary workers available to fill the positions available? Perhaps these migrant "New England/Florida" workers aren't willing, or haven't been willing, to commit to the time they were needed.

I know, hate Trump agendas require suspension of objective thought in order to make room for arbitrary and subjective outrage.

As to my last two sentences, I don't know what cave you've been living in, but encouraging and rewarding illegal aliens is the cornerstone of the liberal/socialist progressive parties agenda, so I'm a bit baffled by your denial of it.
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Why would a business apply for H2-B visas? Simple, if you care to think about it. H2-B visa workers don't have the legal protections enjoyed by American citizens. H2-B workers are more easily intimidated into working off-the-clock. H2-B workers are unlikely to organise in protest of employers' harmful policies.

I remain 'baffled' by the libertarian/conservative/other parties' agendas inasmuch as they seem so willing to deny reality and their own history of oppression and bigotry. Denial of the real world and history is apparently required for membership on the right.
 
chromium said:
I never remotely said this doesn't happen. I said the REASON behind it is uneducated trump voters, who elect someone who uses foreign unskilled work in the hopes he'll protect their unskilled jobs, and somehow this IT crap has anything to do with that

You might want to start by learning what i'm saying before accusing me of not knowing what i'm saying
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again you prove that you don't know what you are talking about all of these things happened under Obama.
 
Somerville said:
Why would a business apply for H2-B visas? Simple, if you care to think about it. H2-B visa workers don't have the legal protections enjoyed by American citizens. H2-B workers are more easily intimidated into working off-the-clock. H2-B workers are unlikely to organise in protest of employers' harmful policies.

I remain 'baffled' by the libertarian/conservative/other parties' agendas inasmuch as they seem so willing to deny reality and their own history of oppression and bigotry. Denial of the real world and history is apparently required for membership on the right.
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If I care to think about it?

Please don't expect many people to buy into your exploit the workers socialist propaganda than forms you ideological perspective.

Cling to what you must, but the only reality that matters is the one you're point of view must reject.
 
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