• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities

I don't think Adams opinion on public education changed much from 1777 until his dying day, do you?
Laws for the liberal education of youth, especially of the lower class of people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant.” – John Adams, Thoughts on Government.

“An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.” Benjamin Franklin​


It seems Jefferson considered public education as "infrastructure" in the same vein as "roads, rivers, canals and other objects of public improvement"....and using federal land trusts to pay for it....
"....Their patriotism would certainly prefer its continuance and application to the great purposes of the public education, roads, rivers, canals, and such other objects of public improvement as it may be thought proper to add to the constitutional enumeration of Federal powers. By these operations new channels of communications will be opened between the States, the lines of separation will disappear, their interests will be identified, and their union cemented by new and indissoluble ties. Education is here placed among the articles of public care, not that it would be proposed to take its ordinary branches out of the hands of private enterprise, which manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal, but a public institution can alone supply those sciences which though rarely called for are yet necessary to complete the circle, all the parts of which contribute to the improvement of the country and some of them to its preservation....

The subject is now proposed for the consideration of Congress, because if approved by the time the State legislatures shall have deliberated on this extension of the Federal trusts, and the laws shall be passed and other arrangements made for their execution, the necessary funds will be on hand and without employment....

The present consideration of a national establishment for education particularly is rendered proper by this circumstance also, that if Congress, approving the proposition, shall yet think it more eligible to found it on a donation of lands, they have it now in their power to endow it with those which will be among the earliest to produce the necessary income. This foundation would have the advantage of being independent of war, which may suspend other improvements by requiring for its own purposes the resources destined for them.....""

State of the Union Address: Thomas Jefferson (December 2, 1806)


Federal trust lands were granted by the United States Congress to states upon entering the Union. These lands were designated to support essential public institutions, primarily public schools....


Utah still has federal trust lands that generates revenue that can only be used for public education....


So...even though it was not an enumerated power in 1806...the federal government still believed in and had sway over public education.

moot dont make excuses, you posted a quoted from before the constitution, so you failed right there!

Adams was a strong supported of mixed government , the separation of powers

the founders voted that the federal government will not be involved in education on sept 5 1787
 
moot dont make excuses, you posted a quoted from before the constitution, so you failed right there!

Adams was a strong supported of mixed government , the separation of powers

the founders voted that the federal government will not be involved in education on sept 5 1787

Since it's your claim that Adams changed his opinion on public education after the ratification of the Constitution...then the onus is on you to prove that he did....not me. So show me where Adams changed his opinion, PO?

Until then, Adams opinion on public education stands regardless of when the constitution was ratified....and your stupid little argument fails miserably. :cool:
 
Since it's your claim that Adams changed his opinion on public education after the ratification of the Constitution...then the onus is on you to prove that he did....not me. So show me where Adams changed his opinion, PO?

Until then, Adams opinion on public education stands regardless of when the constitution was ratified....and your stupid little argument fails miserably. :cool:


moot, its clear you don't know your history at all by posting things before the constitution ..ie 1785

the founders made it clear at the convention that the federal government will not be in education in sept 1787

Adams was clearly for the separation of powers via our mixed government,

nothing of your stands, because you don't know your dates and you tried to put forth the preamble as a power of government, which of course it not...so you have ruined any point you try to make
 
moot, its clear you don't know your history at all by posting things before the constitution ..ie 1785

the founders made it clear at the convention that the federal government will not be in education in sept 1787

Adams was clearly for the separation of powers via our mixed government,

nothing of your stands, because you don't know your dates and you tried to put forth the preamble as a power of government, which of course it not...so you have ruined any point you try to make

FAIL.

The only thing clear here is you're intellectually dishonest.

Show me your evidence that Adam's changed his opinion on public education after the ratification, PO.

Put up or STFU.
 
FAIL.

The only thing clear here is you're intellectually dishonest.

Show me your evidence that Adam's changed his opinion on public education after the ratification, PO.

Put up or STFU.

moot, you are the one making the claim show me were Adams states the federal government will be involved in education....since that would be a state power.


Laws for the liberal education of youth, especially of the lower class of people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant.” – John Adams Apr 1776



Thomas Jefferson : Sixth Annual Message to Congress

Sixth Annual Message

December 2, 1806

TO THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED:


The subject is now proposed for the consideration of Congress, because, if approved by the time the State legislatures shall have deliberated on this extension of the federal trusts, and the laws shall be passed, and other arrangements made for their execution, the necessary funds will be on hand and without employment. I suppose an amendment to the constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in the constitution, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied.


your own link

State of the Union Address: Thomas Jefferson (December 2, 1806)
 
Last edited:
The taxes will come out in time. And yes, people want to see them.

April 15. Check the Resistance Calendar.org site.
 
Last edited:
moot, you are the one making the claim show me were Adams states the federal government will be involved in education....since that would be a state power.




Thomas Jefferson : Sixth Annual Message to Congress

Sixth Annual Message

December 2, 1806

TO THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED:


The subject is now proposed for the consideration of Congress, because, if approved by the time the State legislatures shall have deliberated on this extension of the federal trusts, and the laws shall be passed, and other arrangements made for their execution, the necessary funds will be on hand and without employment. I suppose an amendment to the constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in the constitution, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied.


your own link

State of the Union Address: Thomas Jefferson (December 2, 1806)

You're the one making the claim that Adam's changed his opinion after ratification of the Constitution. So show your evidence or STFU....PO.


How do you explain the Federal Land Trusts, PO?
 
You're the one making the claim that Adam's changed his opinion after ratification of the Constitution. So show your evidence or STFU....PO.

wrong, i did not say anything about him changing is opinion, i said he was for the separation of powers,

your links failed which i posted also showed you dont know what you are talking about in your postings.

Adams was a strong supported of mixed government , the separation of powers
 
Last edited:
How do you explain the Federal Land Trusts, PO?

:roll: do you read what you post, from your own link:

The subject is now proposed for the consideration of Congress, because, if approved by the time the State legislatures shall have deliberated on this extension of the federal trusts, and the laws shall be passed, and other arrangements made for their execution, the necessary funds will be on hand and without employment. I suppose an amendment to the constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in the constitution, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied.
 
wrong, i did not say anything about him changing is opinion, i said he was for the separation of powers,

your links failed which i posted also showed you dont know what you are talking about in your postings.

Stop lying and making excuses, PO. You said that because Adam's quote occurred before the ratification that he couldn't hold the same opinion after. So where's your evidence that his opinion changed, PO?

And how do you explain the Federal trust lands...


Federal trust lands were granted by the United States Congress to states upon entering the Union. These lands were designated to support essential public institutions, primarily public schools....



Utah still has federal trust lands that generates revenue that can only be used for public education....

 
:roll: do you read what you post, from your own link:

The subject is now proposed for the consideration of Congress, because, if approved by the time the State legislatures shall have deliberated on this extension of the federal trusts, and the laws shall be passed, and other arrangements made for their execution, the necessary funds will be on hand and without employment. I suppose an amendment to the constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in the constitution, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied.

This is the third time you FAILED to explain the Federal Trust Lands....let this be your last.
 
FAIL.

The only thing clear here is you're intellectually dishonest.

Show me your evidence that Adam's changed his opinion on public education after the ratification, PO.

Put up or STFU.

Moot: do you understand the concept of a limited government restricted to acting only in areas where it was delegated enumerated powers

and if you actually understand that concept, where was education an enumerated power?

Now if you don't believe that the federal government was intended to be limited to its enumerated powers-as set forth in Article One, Section 8 then you need to go back and study constitutional history
 
Stop lying and making excuses, PO. You said that because Adam's quote occurred before the ratification that he couldn't hold the same opinion after. So where's your evidence that his opinion changed, PO?


produce that quote

And how do you explain the Federal trust lands...




Federal trust lands were granted by the United States Congress to states upon entering the Union. These lands were designated to support essential public institutions, primarily public schools....


The General Land Ordinance of 1785

Utah still has federal trust lands that generates revenue that can only be used for public education....




The 15-member Utah State Board of Education unanimously passed a resolution at its Friday meeting, establishing an official position on federal and school trust land policy, and clarifying the need to adequately compensate Utah’s public schools in the event of a national monument designation.

Upon statehood, the federal government granted six million acres of trust lands to Utah to support state institutions, including public schools, and state hospitals and colleges. Utah is one of 23 trust land states.

you posting is about land not the education of citizens.

this is a very poor excuse to use
 
Last edited:
Moot: do you understand the concept of a limited government restricted to acting only in areas where it was delegated enumerated powers

and if you actually understand that concept, where was education an enumerated power?

Now if you don't believe that the federal government was intended to be limited to its enumerated powers-as set forth in Article One, Section 8 then you need to go back and study constitutional history

I didn't say that public education is a numerated power. So take your smarmy lying strawman and eat it, TD.
 
FAIL.

No, you didn't.

moot again do you read what you post?

State trust lands were granted by the United States Congress to states upon entering the Union. These lands were designated to support essential public institutions, primarily public schools. State trust land managers lease and sell these lands to generate revenue for current and future designated beneficiaries. Predominantly found in the western United States, 46 million acres of land are currently designated as trust lands and the proceeds from the lease and sale of these lands are distributed into a state's permanent fund and used for many purposes.[1]


The General Land Ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance established and systematized the policies that governed the disposal of the public domain to settlers and the creation of new states. Under the framework of these ordinances, a centrally located parcel in each surveyed township – section sixteen – would be reserved for the support of schools, and once the territory became a state, the state would receive title to these reserved parcels (as well as land grants to support other public institutions). This policy was later expanded to include additional reserved sections to support schools, as well as land grants to support other public institutions, such as universities, hospitals, schools for the deaf and blind, and correctional facilities, among others. K-12 public schools were by far the largest beneficiaries of the land grant programs.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Trust_Lands
 
I didn't say that public education is a numerated power. So take your smarmy lying strawman and eat it, TD.

The problem is Moot, you don't seem to understand the entire concept of our government. Your posts repeatedly have claimed that if it "feels good" then its constitutional.
 
what are you saying?

She is trying to pretend that she didn't screw up the entire premise upon which the federal government was based while actually doing just that. She is on record saying the federal government being involved in primary and secondary education is constitutional but now pretends that the only basis for that being so, doesn't exist. Its akin to her claiming that the Miller case was lost by the defendant on STANDING
 
you posting is about land not the education of citizens.

this is a very poor excuse to use

Why can't you explain the Federal Trust Lands..PO?

I'm getting tired of your obtuse failed excuses, too.
 
She is trying to pretend that she didn't screw up the entire premise upon which the federal government was based while actually doing just that. She is on record saying the federal government being involved in primary and secondary education is constitutional but now pretends that the only basis for that being so, doesn't exist. Its akin to her claiming that the Miller case was lost by the defendant on STANDING

she has already failed with her own links
 
she has already failed with her own links

Its pretty amusing. Its not an enumerated power but its constitutional for the government to engage in activity that it has no delegated authority to do so. Sort of sounds like something out of the FDR administration
 
Back
Top Bottom