Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities

minnie616 · Mar 23, 2017

From the following article:

While U.S. Supreme Court nominee Neil Gorsuch answered questions about his judicial career during his Senate confirmation hearing on Wednesday, the justices whose ranks he hopes to join unanimously struck down a prior decision of his against a student with autism.

All eight Supreme Court justices sided with a special-needs Colorado student Wednesday in the case Endrew F. v. Douglas County School District.

<Snip>

But Gorsuch wrote that to comply with IDEA, public school programs need to allow students to make progress that “must merely be ‘more than de minimis,’” which is a Latin phrase meaning “too minor to merit consideration.” Basically, since Luke was making some progress in his public school, the district hadn’t broken IDEA, Gorsuch wrote — even though the boy made much more progress in the private option.[/B]

The entire U.S. Supreme Court struck down that idea Wednesday.

“A student offered an educational program providing ‘merely more than de minimis’ progress from year to year can hardly be said to have been offered an education at all,” Chief Justice John Roberts wrote.

Read more:

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities | FOX6Now.com

As the mother of 3 of our 4 children who needed extra help in public school because they had learning disabilities I am extremely grateful our public school system complied with IDEA much more than bare minimum but worked hard with our children and their teachers to help our children receive the best education and the extra help they needed to become sucessful adults.

All of our children received college degrees , are homeowners and have better than average income and careers.

haymarket · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
From the following article:

Read more:

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities | FOX6Now.com

As the mother of 3 of our 4 children who needed extra help in public school because they had learning disabilities I am extremely grateful our public school system complied with IDEA much more than bare minimum but worked hard with our children and their teachers to help our children receive the best education and the extra help they needed to become sucessful adults.

All of our children received college degrees , are homeowners and have better than average income and careers.

Thank you for this information and your own experience. We need to get out of the dark ages - at least some people do - that special needs kids are somehow less than other kids and we need to spend MORE money on them if we want better outcomes. For Gorsuch to be out of step on this does not bode well for future rulings from him.

When Senator Franken exposed his crass vote on the freezing truck driver - it really showed us that Gorsuch lives in some idealistic world that is not the real one the rest of lives in.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
From the following article:

Read more:

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities | FOX6Now.com

As the mother of 3 of our 4 children who needed extra help in public school because they had learning disabilities I am extremely grateful our public school system complied with IDEA much more than bare minimum but worked hard with our children and their teachers to help our children receive the best education and the extra help they needed to become sucessful adults.

All of our children received college degrees , are homeowners and have better than average income and careers.

That decision seems to set the stage for (after the fact) vouchers for nearly any parent that can show a (self selected) private school offered their child a better education than their assigned public school did. The court did not require proof that the public school offered no IDEA help, merely that its result (the students educational progress) was not as good as that offered by a (self selected) private school. There is little doubt that a private school would offer a better education than some public schools do - otherwise they would likely go out of business.

tres borrachos · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
From the following article:

Read more:

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities | FOX6Now.com

As the mother of 3 of our 4 children who needed extra help in public school because they had learning disabilities I am extremely grateful our public school system complied with IDEA much more than bare minimum but worked hard with our children and their teachers to help our children receive the best education and the extra help they needed to become sucessful adults.

All of our children received college degrees , are homeowners and have better than average income and careers.

Thank you for posting this Minnie. And I'm very glad your children have succeeded and thrived in life.

Interesting that this decision was unanimous.

joG · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
From the following article:

Read more:

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities | FOX6Now.com

As the mother of 3 of our 4 children who needed extra help in public school because they had learning disabilities I am extremely grateful our public school system complied with IDEA much more than bare minimum but worked hard with our children and their teachers to help our children receive the best education and the extra help they needed to become sucessful adults.

All of our children received college degrees , are homeowners and have better than average income and careers.

What a far out idea to sue the public school and not the government. If that becomes the norm, taxes will have to be increased and/or schools closed, depending on how this path of demand on public funds develops out of that ruling. There has developed a divisive discussion in Germany over the past years about the rights of inclusion, how to afford the handicapped such and how far they should reasonably go.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2017

tres borrachos said:
Thank you for posting this Minnie. And I'm very glad your children have succeeded and thrived in life.

Interesting that this decision was unanimous.

More interesting was the judicial decision that a given public school must be as good as (allow a given student to progress equally with) a self selected private school or the parents may sue that public school to recover their tuition expenses. This may be the start of an after the fact voucher system.

tres borrachos · Mar 23, 2017

ttwtt78640 said:
More interesting was the judicial decision that a given public school must be as good as (allow a given student to progress equally with) a self selected private school or the parents may sue that public school to recover their tuition expenses. This may be the start of an after the fact voucher system.

Excellent point and your last part I think is really interesting. You may very well be right.

Beaudreaux · Mar 23, 2017

Not to take away from the heart warming personal story of Minnie616...

When this happened it was immediately brought up in the confirmation hearing for Gorsuch which was going on simultaneously. I watched it happen. I heard the question and I heard his answer. He stated that his ruling followed the exact wording of the law, and legal precedence set by the SCOTUS on that area of law, and precedence set the 10th Circuit and other courts precedence on that area of law. He had no problem with his ruling being overturned because that's what the SCOTUS is there to do -- set precedence or overturn previous precedence.

That made sense to me.

In other words, he did what a lower court judge should have done, which does not include emotional, ideological, or political motivations. He simply followed the law. Congress makes the laws, and the courts rule on them, that's the way it's supposed to be. The SCOTUS can change precedence on applicability or Constitutionality of a law, but only Congress can change it's wording.

So, I don't see this as a bad thing for Gorsuch, or his original ruling.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2017

tres borrachos said:
Excellent point and your last part I think is really interesting. You may very well be right.

The initial decision was, since some educational progress was being made in the public school, that the fact that a private school was proven to be better made no difference as to whether an IDEA complaint program was in place. The SCOTUS decided to agree use the the plaintiff's "as good as a private school" test to determine the matter. Perhaps the more conservative judges went along based on the idea that this "as good as a (self selected) private school" test being established as precedent would help other parents sue their public schools claiming that since a private school offered better results they are due a settlement to cover their tuition costs.

Mac77 · Mar 23, 2017

ttwtt78640 said:
That decision seems to set the stage for (after the fact) vouchers for nearly any parent that can show a (self selected) private school offered their child a better education than their assigned public school did. The court did not require proof that the public school offered no IDEA help, merely that its result (the students educational progress) was not as good as that offered by a (self selected) private school. There is little doubt that a private school would offer a better education than some public schools do - otherwise they would likely go out of business.

The law specifically gives special rights to disabled students that others students dont have

But congress and trump can fix that

ocean515 · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
From the following article:

Read more:

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities | FOX6Now.com

As the mother of 3 of our 4 children who needed extra help in public school because they had learning disabilities I am extremely grateful our public school system complied with IDEA much more than bare minimum but worked hard with our children and their teachers to help our children receive the best education and the extra help they needed to become sucessful adults.

All of our children received college degrees , are homeowners and have better than average income and careers.

Not sure what the point of this thread is. Well, that's not true. It's obvious what this thread is trying to do.

However, for those who prefer knowledge over sound bites, here is a link to the SCOTUS decision, including Roberts opinion.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-827_0pm1.pdf

In this case, it appears the grey area known as IEP (Individualized Education Program) was clarified by the SCOTUS, who then returned with an equally foggy ruling.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2017

Mac77 said:
The law specifically gives special rights to disabled students that others students dont have

But congress and trump can fix that

Equal protection of the law "fixes" that.

The right (precedent?) established by this SCOTUS decision seems to be that a public school must offer "equal educational progress" to that of a (self selected) private school. The fact that this case involved an autistic student is of secondary importance - the legal concept of using a (self selected) private school as a benchmark to measure a public school's performance for a single given student is the important legal point (precedent?) established.

Common Sense 1 · Mar 23, 2017

During his tenure on the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, Judge Gorsuch has authored 212 published opinions.

It would be helpful to read judge Grosuch's opinion and then read the opinion of the Supreme court to
see what reasoning was used to reach their decisions. This opinion is being used to say Grosuch is a mean
guy who ruled against a special-needs student. Watching him during the senate hearings he seems to
look carefully at the law. Even the brightest Judge can make a mistake and that is why there is the right
to appeal.

Just a reminder the American Bar Association declared Judge Neil Gorsuch “well-qualified” to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court.
That is the highest rating they give.

Mac77 · Mar 23, 2017

ttwtt78640 said:
Equal protection of the law "fixes" that.

The right (precedent?) established by this SCOTUS decision seems to be that a public school must offer "equal educational progress" to that of a (self selected) private school. The fact that this case involved an autistic student is of secondary importance - the legal concept of using a (self selected) private school as a benchmark to measure a public school's performance for a single given student is the important legal point (precedent?) established.

It is posdsible to use legal hair-splitting to conservative advantage

But I'm not sure if the republicans in congress are up to the job

Skeptic Bob · Mar 23, 2017

Well, there is a warm welcome.

minnie616 · Mar 23, 2017

ttwtt78640 said:
That decision seems to set the stage for (after the fact) vouchers for nearly any parent that can show a (self selected) private school offered their child a better education than their assigned public school did. The court did not require proof that the public school offered no IDEA help, merely that its result (the students educational progress) was not as good as that offered by a (self selected) private school. There is little doubt that a private school would offer a better education than some public schools do - otherwise they would likely go out of business.

Beaudreaux said:
Not to take away from the heart warming personal story of Minnie616...
...

In other words, he did what a lower court judge should have done, which does not include emotional, ideological, or political motivations. He simply followed the law. Congress makes the laws, and the courts rule on them, that's the way it's supposed to be. The SCOTUS can change precedence on applicability or Constitutionality of a law, but only Congress can change it's wording.

So, I don't see this as a bad thing for Gorsuch, or his original ruling.

Mac77 said:
The law specifically gives special rights to disabled students that others students dont have

But congress and trump can fix that

I disagree.
I feel that Gorsuch did not really understand what IDEA is ment to accomplish.

From the following Forbes article:

I disagree.

From the following Forbes article:

“What inclusion actually means is that students are part of the same school community, with the curriculum differentiated for individualized learning styles (which may mean that students don’t all have the same classes together), and supports in place for those who need them.

Research consistently demonstrates that students included in this way thrive—all the students, not just the special ed students, and even the special ed students with significant support needs.”

<snip>

Yet his statements make it clear how little he understands IDEA, FAPE, special education and the needs of students with disabilities. In fact, when Sessions first describes special education students, he refers only to those with “a hearing loss, or a sight loss, or if they have difficulty moving around, in a wheelchair, or whatever.” It’s unclear what “whatever” might refer to, but given that his examples are all outwardly identifiable physical disabilities, Sessions appears not to recognize that disabilities also include the vast number of less outwardly visible ones, such as autism and other developmental disabilities, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, dyslexia, mood disorders, cognitive disabilities, personality disorders, dysgraphia, sensory processing disorder and other “invisible” disabilities.

<snip>

But his statements completely neglect what the purpose of special education is: to accommodate the needs of children with different abilities precisely because they cannot, developmentally or physically or cognitively, adhere to the standards set for other students.

<snip>

Rather than “undermining” the authority of educators, Patterson said IDEA leveled the playing field for students with special needs, ensuring that they receive just as much education from art, music, gym and other specialist teachers as regular education students.

Read more:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/taraha...essions-as-u-s-attorney-general/#5a383b155d52

Zyphlin · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
I disagree.
I feel that Gorsuch did not really understand what IDEA is ment to accomplish.

The presence of that word in your argument should indicate pretty clearly where the conflict is here.

minnie616 · Mar 23, 2017

Zyphlin said:
The presence of that word in your argument should indicate pretty clearly where the conflict is here.

I feel that Gorsuch narrowered it down to bare minimum of exposure to education not to actually educating the child . IDEA was enacted to meet the child's special needs and educate the child with learning disabilities.

From the SC Ruling:

Held: To meet its substantive obligation under the IDEA, a school must offer an IEP reasonably calculated to enable a child to make progress appropriate in light of the child’s circumstances. Pp. 9–16.
(a) Rowley and the language of the IDEA point to the approach adopted here. The “reasonably calculated” qualification reflects a recognition that crafting an appropriate program of education re- quires a prospective judgment by school officials, informed by their own expertise and the views of a child’s parents or guardians; any re- view of an IEP must appreciate that the question is whether the IEP is reasonable, not whether the court regards it as ideal. An IEP must aim to enable the child to make progress; the essential function of an IEP is to set out a plan for pursuing academic and functional ad- vancement. And the degree of progress contemplated by the IEP must be appropriate in light of the child’s circumstances, which should come as no surprise. This reflects the focus on the particular child that is at the core of the IDEA, and the directive that States of- fer instruction “specially designed” to meet a child’s “unique needs” through an “ndividualized education program.”

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-827_0pm1.pdf

chromium · Mar 23, 2017

Guess the "moderate" who democrats may capitulate for couldn't get on the court fast enough to vote a 8-1 loss on his own unconstitutional ruling

minnie616 · Mar 23, 2017

ttwtt78640 said:
More interesting was the judicial decision that a given public school must be as good as (allow a given student to progress equally with) a self selected private school or the parents may sue that public school to recover their tuition expenses. This may be the start of an after the fact voucher system.

Actually there are very few private schools that accept children with learning disabilities.

But if it can be proven that a child with learning disabilies scored higher on the same scale achieve test after switching from the public school which only gave minimal education to the same child and the private school is held to the same standards of IDEA and IEPs than I agree with an after the fact voucher system.

Eric7216 · Mar 23, 2017

ttwtt78640 said:
That decision seems to set the stage for (after the fact) vouchers for nearly any parent that can show a (self selected) private school offered their child a better education than their assigned public school did. The court did not require proof that the public school offered no IDEA help, merely that its result (the students educational progress) was not as good as that offered by a (self selected) private school. There is little doubt that a private school would offer a better education than some public schools do - otherwise they would likely go out of business.

Great point. This could be a death knell to public education as almost everyone can claim some sort of disability that could be better helped in a school that specializes with dealing with that disability.
If we had a working Congress perhaps they could make the changes to correct deficiencies in IDEA.

minnie616 · Mar 23, 2017

Eric7216 said:
Great point. This could be a death knell to public education as almost everyone can claim some sort of disability that could be better helped in a school that specializes with dealing with that disability.
If we had a working Congress perhaps they could make the changes to correct deficiencies in IDEA.

As long as a private school accepts children with disabilities and follows the same standards including IDEA and IEPs than vouchers should be acceptable. But your notion that almost anyone can claim a child has a learning disability is wrong. Standard testing must be done and the child has to fall within those standards.

From an LDA article:

Right to an Evaluation of a Child for Special Education Services

Parents who are aware their child is having a difficult time with reading, mathematics, written expression or other aspects of school work might suspect that the child has a learning disability (LD), also known as specific learning disabilities, and may be in need of special education services.

Learning disabilities are caused by a disorder in how information is received, processed, or communicated within the brain and affect each individual differently.

A learning disability can cause an individual to have difficulty in specific areas of learning, including reading, writing, and mathematics. In addition, individuals with LD may have difficulty with gross motor or fine motor coordination or with social interaction. Learning disabilities can affect children and adults and impact school, family, workplace and community life. For more information on LD, please see the LDA Position Statement What are Learning Disabilities?

What are your legal rights to an evaluation?

https://ldaamerica.org/advocacy/lda...on-of-a-child-for-special-education-services/

Mac77 · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
As long as a private school accepts children with disabilities and follows the same standards including IDEA and IEPs than vouchers are acceptable. But your notion that almost anyone can claim a child has learning is wrong. Standard testing must be done and the child has to fall within those standards.

Wrong

Problem children can remain in the poublic school if no private school will accept them

Erod · Mar 23, 2017

minnie616 said:
As long as a private school accepts children with disabilities and follows the same standards including IDEA and IEPs than vouchers are acceptable. But your notion that almost anyone can claim a child has learning is wrong. Standard testing must be done and the child has to fall within those standards.

Not anymore. Now, we can identify as virtually anything we want. Why can't we imagine any disability we want?

prometeus · Mar 23, 2017

Common Sense 1 said:
During his tenure on the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, Judge Gorsuch has authored 212 published opinions.

It would be helpful to read judge Grosuch's opinion and then read the opinion of the Supreme court to
see what reasoning was used to reach their decisions. This opinion is being used to say Grosuch is a mean
guy who ruled against a special-needs student. Watching him during the senate hearings he seems to
look carefully at the law. Even the brightest Judge can make a mistake and that is why there is the right
to appeal.

Just a reminder the American Bar Association declared Judge Neil Gorsuch “well-qualified” to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court.
That is the highest rating they give.

Gorsuch is under the belief that man should serve the law as opposed to the real purpose of the law which is to serve man.
Yes, any and everyone can make a mistake, but it is clear that he does not favor the "little guy" and as a justice on the SCOTUS there hardly is a way to appeal his possible mistakes.

Supreme Court overturns Gorsuch ruling against student with disabilities

minnie616

haymarket

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

tres borrachos

HoHoHo

joG

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

tres borrachos

HoHoHo

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

Mac77

ocean515

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

Common Sense 1

Mac77

Skeptic Bob

minnie616

Zyphlin

minnie616

chromium

minnie616

Eric7216

minnie616

Mac77

Erod

prometeus