• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US says 'strategic patience' on NK is over

You sure about that?



Ok so you cut the military budget, in today's world, and tell me how long it would take for America to be marginalized militarily, and possibly open to outside attack on the homeland?



I added the 'anymore' in there to make more sense...We damned sure used to believe in the good of projecting military strength, and a muscular global footprint...Although I agree, that we are not good at "nation building" and shouldn't be in that business. But that in no way means that we can fold up the tents, and come on home, and let the world fend for itself either...That we have seen in the past 8 years has not been good for either our image, or global peace.

The past 15 years have not been good for our image or global peace. The war in Iraq was largely to blame for that.

Now, let's examine the original premise: The military, the most expensive on Earth by far, can not win a war. Is that true? The war in Iraq would seem to indicate that it is, but then, that was a nation building project and not really a war. It didn't take long to defeat Saddam Hussain's forces, after all, it was what came after that was a disaster.

I think our military can win wars, it's just that we're attempting to use it for other purposes.

Moreover, warfare has changed. We're not fighting a nation, but an ideology. Wars between major nations are impossible to wage due to nuclear weapons - such a war would destroy both nations and most of the rest of the world as well.
 
This is just tough talk so the Trump administration can feel like they're in control and their supporters think it is a projection of power. NK is not going to flinch, the U.S. is not going to do anything. If there were a solution to this problem it would have been carried out long ago. Any significant action will result in regional Armageddon which nobody wants.
 
This is just tough talk so the Trump administration can feel like they're in control and their supporters think it is a projection of power. NK is not going to flinch, the U.S. is not going to do anything. If there were a solution to this problem it would have been carried out long ago. Any significant action will result in regional Armageddon which nobody wants.

There is a solution. Slow and debilitating propaganda and encouraging resistance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You know that's a funny one there LT, but I seem to recall the previous President telling the GOP candidate that the 80s were calling for their foreign policy back....Now, all of the sudden because of a convenient narrative, Russia is a significant threat again...Look, I know that detractors of Trump would love it if they could continue to paint the President as some amateur goof that shoots his mouth off without regard to the consequences of such, and will take us to war because of his lack of experience and knowledge of global concepts, and to some extent that is a concern, but I have to believe at this moment anyway, that he has enough really good people surrounding him to avoid the pitfalls of such. Now that does not mean that this nations detractors won't test every nook and cranny to provoke a scenerio that would be in said nations interests, in terms of not liking the US re asserting their status as a superpower, but I along with the people that did vote him into office are sick to death of these same pip squeak nations walking all over us, and if it means that America, after trying everything possible has no other choice? Well, that won't be solely on President Trump either....Nothing happens in that regard as a result of ONE Presidents doing.

Name a pip squeak nation that has walked over the US, as in actually walked over the US rather than not following US demands on issues outside of the US?
 
The past 15 years have not been good for our image or global peace. The war in Iraq was largely to blame for that.

Well, I wouldn't put all the blame on Iraq either Ditto...the last eight years of America "leading from behind" certainly didn't do much for instilling pause for maniac's like Kim doing what they are doing today....

Now, let's examine the original premise: The military, the most expensive on Earth by far, can not win a war.

This canard of "the most expensive" BS, is garbage Ditto....The cost of the US military on this planet extends far beyond that of hardware, and troops...America's responsibility to be in the places we are, and show that strong presence to deter opportunistic despots around the world from chaos, and calamity is a vacuum that certainly would be filled by less altruistic motives around the world....So, we can dispense with this foolish part of the argument against our military.

Is that true?

Well, we certainly won't win wars if the democrats have their way of a UN run endeavor...Everyone damned well knows that the UN doesn't see wars as something to win, their objective is to have sides fight to a draw.

The war in Iraq would seem to indicate that it is, but then, that was a nation building project and not really a war. It didn't take long to defeat Saddam Hussain's forces, after all, it was what came after that was a disaster.

Yeah? and why was that....America often these days has to not only fight the enemy, but often it's own citizens lack of support when a war becomes unpopular to wage...There is no more unification behind the effort to WIN like in WWII.

I think our military can win wars, it's just that we're attempting to use it for other purposes.

I agree...We can be there to aid in times of disaster, but we also have to have the emphasis on actually winning when we get involved in an armed conflict....Kind of like when I was a kid, and my sister and I would start squabbling....My dad would get to a point, then say something like, "You two better settle it, or I will..." That is the mentality we need to have.

Moreover, warfare has changed. We're not fighting a nation, but an ideology. Wars between major nations are impossible to wage due to nuclear weapons - such a war would destroy both nations and most of the rest of the world as well.

Nukes are a deterant for sure...But that doesn't stop foolish democrats today uttering stupidy like "Russia's interference in our election is an act of war..." Are they crazy?
 
Name a pip squeak nation that has walked over the US, as in actually walked over the US rather than not following US demands on issues outside of the US?

NK is a good example, as well as Iran is....Iran in this stupid deal has eaten the US lunch....
 
NK is a good example, as well as Iran is....Iran in this stupid deal has eaten the US lunch....


So Iran and North Korea walked over the US on what is realistically internal issues for Iran and North Korea? Iran did not make the US do anything, it did not stop any US policy that was not directed at something Iran was doing internally yet it walked over the US? The same goes for North Korea.

That is not walking over someone, that is just not following demands for changing internal policies from an outside entity. Had they made the US change US domestic policies then it would have walked over the US
 
So Iran and North Korea walked over the US on what is realistically internal issues for Iran and North Korea? Iran did not make the US do anything, it did not stop any US policy that was not directed at something Iran was doing internally yet it walked over the US? The same goes for North Korea.

That is not walking over someone, that is just not following demands for changing internal policies from an outside entity. Had they made the US change US domestic policies then it would have walked over the US

I would say that Kerry signing that stupid Iran deal that wasn't even as good as the paper it was written on gave a good chuckle to the leadership throughout the ME.
 
Well, I wouldn't put all the blame on Iraq either Ditto...the last eight years of America "leading from behind" certainly didn't do much for instilling pause for maniac's like Kim doing what they are doing today....

So, does that mean we should go back to the PNAC, the philosophy of a Pax Americana supported by Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld that led to the war in Iraq?


This canard of "the most expensive" BS, is garbage Ditto....The cost of the US military on this planet extends far beyond that of hardware, and troops...America's responsibility to be in the places we are, and show that strong presence to deter opportunistic despots around the world from chaos, and calamity is a vacuum that certainly would be filled by less altruistic motives around the world....So, we can dispense with this foolish part of the argument against our military.

You might be able to explain why we have the most expensive military on Earth, make arguments as to why we should continue to have, but facts are facts, we spend more on the military by far than anyone else. Is it worth it?

Well, we certainly won't win wars if the democrats have their way of a UN run endeavor...Everyone damned well knows that the UN doesn't see wars as something to win, their objective is to have sides fight to a draw.

The Republicans didn't do so well, either.

Yeah? and why was that....America often these days has to not only fight the enemy, but often it's own citizens lack of support when a war becomes unpopular to wage...There is no more unification behind the effort to WIN like in WWII.

Exactly why you don't start a war on false premises or one that the people of this country aren't in favor of. In WWII, we had no choice, the citizenry knew we had no choice, Congress fulfilled their Constitutional responsibility of making a formal declaration of war, putting the whole country, not just the military, on a war footing. The result was the defeat of Germany, Italy, and Japan in about three years. None of that happened in Iraq or Vietnam. There was no Gulf of Tonkien incident, no non existent weapons of mass destruction, and no hedging over whether it was a war when half a million US troops were fighting.

I agree...We can be there to aid in times of disaster, but we also have to have the emphasis on actually winning when we get involved in an armed conflict....Kind of like when I was a kid, and my sister and I would start squabbling....My dad would get to a point, then say something like, "You two better settle it, or I will..." That is the mentality we need to have.

We aren't the world's father. That's the philosophy of the PNAC, the same as got us into the war in Iraq to start with.


Nukes are a deterant for sure...But that doesn't stop foolish democrats today uttering stupidy like "Russia's interference in our election is an act of war..." Are they crazy?

When the Democrats say that, they aren't calling for a nuclear attack on Russia. They're just trying to undermine the political opposition.
 
So, does that mean we should go back to the PNAC, the philosophy of a Pax Americana supported by Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld that led to the war in Iraq?

First, sorry it took so long to answer back....4 days straight on the road, 2500 miles...no time....But, no one is saying that we should go back to any former strategies, unless they are part of a larger plan to lead...Such as projecting strength, and placing the onus of governing, and rebuilding up to those liberated. That IMHO, is where we made our mistake....To think that a people half way around the world, with different values, and cultures are going to turn into some Jeffersonian republic was a foolish endeavor, and many of us that supported the Iraq invasion now see that.

You might be able to explain why we have the most expensive military on Earth, make arguments as to why we should continue to have, but facts are facts, we spend more on the military by far than anyone else. Is it worth it?

And it is a foolish argument...For instance, You lay out for me why you think we have the highest military budget in the world? I know why I think we have to, but I would be interested in hearing your reasons for why the US should scale back it's spending on military at this time, and what you think would be the result of that, as well as who you think would fill the void left in certain area's?

The Republicans didn't do so well, either.

:lol: Well, isn't that wonderful that you have that out?

Exactly why you don't start a war on false premises or one that the people of this country aren't in favor of. In WWII, we had no choice, the citizenry knew we had no choice, Congress fulfilled their Constitutional responsibility of making a formal declaration of war, putting the whole country, not just the military, on a war footing. The result was the defeat of Germany, Italy, and Japan in about three years. None of that happened in Iraq or Vietnam. There was no Gulf of Tonkien incident, no non existent weapons of mass destruction, and no hedging over whether it was a war when half a million US troops were fighting.

I would just love it if we didn't have to be involved in the world's conflicts unless we were attacked like in WWII....But, knowing that you are a level headed guy, with a firm grasp of history, you'll also know that there were forces in the US during that time that didn't want us involved in that war either. Times change, and our responsibilities change also....Maybe if the US wasn't the "go to" everytime the UN or some tin pot country gets itself in trouble that could be an option, but again, tell me who would fill the void left by a more isolationist America?

We aren't the world's father. That's the philosophy of the PNAC, the same as got us into the war in Iraq to start with.

Tell that to the UN who comes cryin to us every time they need troops or money.

When the Democrats say that, they aren't calling for a nuclear attack on Russia. They're just trying to undermine the political opposition.

Democrats are reckless with our military...To think that some in the democrat party think it prudent to talk about "acts of war" in association with their loss of the previous election is proof of that.
 
First, sorry it took so long to answer back....4 days straight on the road, 2500 miles...no time....

I have to hand it to you, and anyone else that can drive a big truck all day. It has to be difficult, and require a cool head when you deal with the highway idiots that infest the nation's roads. At least you can curse at them and call them names, and they can't hear you.


But, no one is saying that we should go back to any former strategies, unless they are part of a larger plan to lead...Such as projecting strength, and placing the onus of governing, and rebuilding up to those liberated. That IMHO, is where we made our mistake....To think that a people half way around the world, with different values, and cultures are going to turn into some Jeffersonian republic was a foolish endeavor, and many of us that supported the Iraq invasion now see that.

Exactly.

I saw that when Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld were spewing their nonsense and talking Bush into invading. My prediction was that it would turn out a lot like Vietnam, and that the failure would be blamed on "liberals," which is exactly what happened. History repeated itself, as it does.



And it is a foolish argument...For instance, You lay out for me why you think we have the highest military budget in the world? I know why I think we have to, but I would be interested in hearing your reasons for why the US should scale back it's spending on military at this time, and what you think would be the result of that, as well as who you think would fill the void left in certain area's?

I'm not sure we need to scale back our military in any significant way, but neither should we go hand wringing about how the military has been "gutted," and needs a massive infusion of cash. Throwing money at a problem is seldom the path to a solution. I'm also not sure just how much longer we can continue to spend as much as the rest of the world combined on the military when we have a nearly 20 trillion debt.

Like a lot of government spending, military spending is wasted.

:lol: Well, isn't that wonderful that you have that out?



I would just love it if we didn't have to be involved in the world's conflicts unless we were attacked like in WWII....But, knowing that you are a level headed guy, with a firm grasp of history, you'll also know that there were forces in the US during that time that didn't want us involved in that war either. Times change, and our responsibilities change also....Maybe if the US wasn't the "go to" everytime the UN or some tin pot country gets itself in trouble that could be an option, but again, tell me who would fill the void left by a more isolationist America?



Tell that to the UN who comes cryin to us every time they need troops or money.

One of the few issues on which I agree with the current POTUS: The rest of the members of the UN need to step up. The US can't continue to play the role of world cop.

When we're no longer able to fill that role, who will fill the void? That's a good question. Super powers come and go. I'd bet on China being the next one, but who knows?



Democrats are reckless with our military...To think that some in the democrat party think it prudent to talk about "acts of war" in association with their loss of the previous election is proof of that.

Well, it was t he Democratic party that was in power when the foolish decision to send in half a million troops in response to the Gulf of Tonkein non incident was made, so you just may have a point there, but then, I'm not sure you can support the idea that the Republicans are any better.

And, no one is talking about war with Russia. The "acts of war" rhetoric is just that, political rhetoric, overheated, overblown, foolish, and devoid of meaning, just like most political rhetoric.
 
I have to hand it to you, and anyone else that can drive a big truck all day. It has to be difficult, and require a cool head when you deal with the highway idiots that infest the nation's roads. At least you can curse at them and call them names, and they can't hear you.




Exactly.

I saw that when Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld were spewing their nonsense and talking Bush into invading. My prediction was that it would turn out a lot like Vietnam, and that the failure would be blamed on "liberals," which is exactly what happened. History repeated itself, as it does.





I'm not sure we need to scale back our military in any significant way, but neither should we go hand wringing about how the military has been "gutted," and needs a massive infusion of cash. Throwing money at a problem is seldom the path to a solution. I'm also not sure just how much longer we can continue to spend as much as the rest of the world combined on the military when we have a nearly 20 trillion debt.

Like a lot of government spending, military spending is wasted.



One of the few issues on which I agree with the current POTUS: The rest of the members of the UN need to step up. The US can't continue to play the role of world cop.

When we're no longer able to fill that role, who will fill the void? That's a good question. Super powers come and go. I'd bet on China being the next one, but who knows?





Well, it was t he Democratic party that was in power when the foolish decision to send in half a million troops in response to the Gulf of Tonkein non incident was made, so you just may have a point there, but then, I'm not sure you can support the idea that the Republicans are any better.

And, no one is talking about war with Russia. The "acts of war" rhetoric is just that, political rhetoric, overheated, overblown, foolish, and devoid of meaning, just like most political rhetoric.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I do have a question....What do you think a world dominated by a Chinese superpower able to project it's military might across the globe would look like? After all, we know from history that China doesn't go into other lands to just be altruistic, history shows us that they go to conquer and occupy....That is the last time they were able to do such...Certainly NOT what US motivations are....
 
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I do have a question....What do you think a world dominated by a Chinese superpower able to project it's military might across the globe would look like? After all, we know from history that China doesn't go into other lands to just be altruistic, history shows us that they go to conquer and occupy....That is the last time they were able to do such...Certainly NOT what US motivations are....

I don't know. I think such a situation would be frightening to people who don't have the power to resist. On the other hand, it seems that the Chinese ought to know by now that colonialism isn't the road to riches. Look at what has happened to the French, Spanish, and British empires, for example. With a billion and a half citizens, though, China just might be looking for new places for its people to live, I'm not sure.

The world should be grateful that the US hasn't tried to conquer and occupy, but isn't that what was suggested we needed to do in Iraq? McCain said we'd have to be there 99 years. The argument that Obama is to blame for the mess there revolves around having pulled the troops out too soon.
 
Secretary Tillerson has now said that because of its nuclear intents, a military response to North Korea is an option. T'is a troubling St. Patrick's Day.

From the Korea Herald:

With Washington taking a North Korea policy overhaul, US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson on Friday declared that the existing “strategic patience” approach is over, saying all options including military action are on the table.

At a joint news conference with Seoul’s Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se, Tillerson also urged China to cease its economic retaliation against South Korea over its plan to host a US missile shield here, calling it “unnecessary, inappropriate and troubling.”

...Stressing the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system’s raison d’etre, he called for China to refrain from taking retaliation against Seoul and join in addressing the threat that “makes THAAD necessary.”

“We also believe it is not the way for a regional power to help resolve what is a serious threat for everyone. So we hope China will alter its position on punishing South Korea,” Tillerson said. US says 'strategic patience' on NK is over

The problem is NK always gets all sabre rattling when we do drills. It's really part of the game, they sabre rattle, things get a little tense, and then concessions are made to calm things down. Neither side wants war. NK knows it would be the ultimate loser of an armed conflict. China doesn't want it, Russia doesn't, SK doesn't, Japan doesn't, NK doesn't, we don't.

However the miscalculation here is that NK thinks DJT and Co. will back down, DJT's miscalculation is that the days of standing down are well over due. One of them is going to either have to blink or it's war.

War is hell, but ultimately this would be NK's doing.
 
I don't know. I think such a situation would be frightening to people who don't have the power to resist. On the other hand, it seems that the Chinese ought to know by now that colonialism isn't the road to riches. Look at what has happened to the French, Spanish, and British empires, for example. With a billion and a half citizens, though, China just might be looking for new places for its people to live, I'm not sure.

The world should be grateful that the US hasn't tried to conquer and occupy, but isn't that what was suggested we needed to do in Iraq? McCain said we'd have to be there 99 years. The argument that Obama is to blame for the mess there revolves around having pulled the troops out too soon.

Yeah, I'm not so sure that America being in Iraq for 99 years would have solved anything, but I do think that we could have done better to establish security, and make sure that they were on the path to protecting themselves after we left....As it is, all we did was hand it over to Iran. Something they'd been looking to achieve for years...

As for McCain, I am NO fan...To me, his time is long past. Plus, I think the world would be a great dis service should the US exit the scene militarily for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the aid our military offers when disaster happens.
 
The problem is NK always gets all sabre rattling when we do drills. It's really part of the game, they sabre rattle, things get a little tense, and then concessions are made to calm things down. Neither side wants war. NK knows it would be the ultimate loser of an armed conflict. China doesn't want it, Russia doesn't, SK doesn't, Japan doesn't, NK doesn't, we don't.

However the miscalculation here is that NK thinks DJT and Co. will back down, DJT's miscalculation is that the days of standing down are well over due. One of them is going to either have to blink or it's war.

War is hell, but ultimately this would be NK's doing.

I have to agree...For way too long NK has been allowed to pull this crap...It's about time their bluff is called.
 
Yeah, I'm not so sure that America being in Iraq for 99 years would have solved anything, but I do think that we could have done better to establish security, and make sure that they were on the path to protecting themselves after we left....As it is, all we did was hand it over to Iran. Something they'd been looking to achieve for years...

As for McCain, I am NO fan...To me, his time is long past. Plus, I think the world would be a great dis service should the US exit the scene militarily for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the aid our military offers when disaster happens.

I'm no fan of McCain either, but I think he was right when he said we'd have to stay in Iraq indefinitely if we were going to keep the peace.

The best course of action would have been to have stayed out of Iraq in the first place, but that ship has already sailed. The question is: What now?
 
Back
Top Bottom