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US Commander Takes Full Responsibility for SEAL Raid in Yemen

RetiredUSN said:
Oh geee whiz!

Are we going to do this every time we lose a SEAL?

Did you attack Obama when all the Iraqi's we were training, turned their guns on their American trainers and murdered them?

I've never seen so much hypocrisy.
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BUT BUT BUT we also lost a "very expensive aircraft" and between 4 and a dozen innocents died...

Do you remember the "Zero Defect" military, and what a disaster that turned out to be?

That was Clinton right, one of our long run of crap Commanders in Chief.

That is always the problem with the elites arguments:

What happened BT (Before Trump).
 
To piggy back this....

I was a Contractor (Instructor) after I got out. We had about 20 contractors, 90% was Military, the last 2 were qualified civilians, with no Military experience, BUT qualified experiences.

They acted differently then "us", their knowledge was different then "us" and sometimes their teaching was not in line with the Military curriculum. Do we blame them for teaching and acting wrong in the different environment then they are used to? Do we reprimand them at every chance they make a mistake? No first off, we advise them of the curriculum and how their actions should be met and receptive by the students. Ultimately the students failures fall on the instructor sure, but if the Instructor doesnt even know they are acting inappropriately. How is anything going to ever work
 
apdst said:
Did President Trump Plan the mission? You were in the service. You know better.
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Trump was supposed to review the mission. If he did not review the mission, he refused to take what was his responsibility.
He was supposed to give the command whether to go ahead with the mission or step back. If he let someone else have that responsibility, he, again, abrogated his responsibility. He has to take responsibility for any outcome of the mission, good or bad. We know he crows about the tiniest success he claims responsibility for, never takes responsibility for what he is charged with as Commander in Chief. As in this case. Anybody who's been in the military knows whoever is in command is ultimately responsible for mission outcomes.
 
bluesmoke said:
Trump was supposed to review the mission. If he did not review the mission, he refused to take what was his responsibility.
He was supposed to give the command whether to go ahead with the mission or step back. If he let someone else have that responsibility, he, again, abrogated his responsibility. He has to take responsibility for any outcome of the mission, good or bad. We know he crows about the tiniest success he claims responsibility for, never takes responsibility for what he is charged with as Commander in Chief. As in this case. Anybody who's been in the military knows whoever is in command is ultimately responsible for mission outcomes.
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Lets be realistic for a second....

6 days into a job....... looking at a High profile specs ops mision....... Trump, probably has the experience of military combat action from watching, Saving Private Ryan, and Blackhawk down. Was to review what and give WHAT credible information to the mission, In his review, he would have been able to decipher, the mission ops, all intel, troop movements, communications etc etc.....

He was flanked by the SEC DEF and The JOINT Chief the HIGHEST level of Military experience especially in regards to a high profile spec ops mission..... What did you think trump would do, HE would sit through all S1-S6 channels, and review the intel, weapons check each Seal along with the riggers for their chute...


GIVE ME A BREAK..... you guys are killing me with finding any reason to blame this guy.


With that, I will extend 1 olive branch....."ANY military person knows, whoever is in command is ultimately responsible for the mission outcomes." I 100% agree...so let me ask you a direct question, What Military rank did he achieve prior to stepping into the position of the CinC? Exactly, So expecting him to follow our "FILTERED" view that all military personal knows.... yeah.... I doesnt, and he probably doesnt care either. Because he is relying on those that ACTAULLY know WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING....
 
One of the elephants in the room here is that there is a strong likelihood that Obama weakened the Officer Corps by promoting people who are not good warfighters because he cared more about other things. This is after the Military took to heart how much Clinton had destroyed the leadership as was evidenced by their colossal incompetence in Afghanistan and Iraq. Around 2005 it dawned on folks that we need commanders who know how to win, and as Obama came into office the Pentagon was working hard on rebuilding the command structure with competence. . If Obama did what I think he did then you can pretty much put money on the outcome that we will continue to lose all of our wars, because then for almost all of twenty years civilian leadership has been actively weakening the effectiveness of our military through poor command choices.

Does Vogel know what he is doing?

Maybe, maybe not.
 
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reinoe said:
A month in a half after refusing to take responsibility IS REAL LEADERSHIP...
~~~


Ok real talk, you've got a front line employee, that employee's manager, and then way up the chain is the CEO.

If the front line employee gets high and screws up a customer's order, is the CEO responsible? When does "the buck stops at management" become absurd? Granted I'm not surprised that this person who dodged responsibility for nearly seven weeks is being hailed as a leader. The Trump haters praised the Berkeley rioters for their peaceful demonstrations.
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The funny thing is that guys like me spent the last 8 years saying that exact sort of thing to guys like you. But nope, everything that went wrong in America was Obama's fault.


Two wrongs don't make a right, but at the very least, the person who committed the first wrong should probably hesitate before criticizing the people they wronged if those people engage in similar behavior.
 
Exactice said:
Lets be realistic for a second.... 6 days into a job....... looking at a High profile specs ops mision....... Trump, probably has the experience of military combat action from watching, Saving Private Ryan, and Blackhawk down. Was to review what and give WHAT credible information to the mission, In his review, he would have been able to decipher, the mission ops, all intel, troop movements, communications etc etc.....
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Perhaps if Trump had bothered to go to the Situation Room and follow the Yemen mission, he could have learned a thing or three.

But then again, Trump boasted of knowing more than his generals.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The one of the elephants in the room here is that there is a strong likelihood that Obama weakened the Officer Corps by promoting people who are not good warfighters because he cared more about other things. This is after the Military took to heart how much Clinton had destroyed the leadership as was evidenced by their colossal incompetence in Afghanistan and Iraq. Around 2005 it dawned on folks that we need commanders who know how to win, and as Obama came into office the Pentagon was working hard on rebuilding the command structure with competence. . If Obama did what I think he did then you can pretty much put money on the outcome that we will continue to lose all of our wars.

Does Vogel know what he is doing?

Maybe, maybe not.
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Talk about unfounded speculation....
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The one of the elephants in the room here is that there is a strong likelihood that Obama weakened the Officer Corps by promoting people who are not good warfighters because he cared more about other things. This is after the Military took to heart how much Clinton had destroyed the leadership as was evidenced by their colossal incompetence in Afghanistan and Iraq. Around 2005 it dawned on folks that we need commanders who know how to win, and as Obama came into office the Pentagon was working hard on rebuilding the command structure with competence. . If Obama did what I think he did then you can pretty much put money on the outcome that we will continue to lose all of our wars.

Does Vogel know what he is doing?

Maybe, maybe not.
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With regards to knowing and not knowing...... How about this.

Lets say TRUMP, Inexperience knows nothing about the military, tells his commanders, I dont know what the hell this mission is, so NO go. While the commanders the ones that know are the ones telling him its good to go. How does that make any of the commander feel. Trump allowing the commanders to make the decision and he giving the go ahead is to show is confidence in his field commanders.

So because trump has no Idea, hes going to say no everytime, even though the Subject matter experts are saying yes...


this is a double edge sword, you are damned if you do, damned if you dont.....
 
Rogue Valley said:
Perhaps if Trump had bothered to go to the Situation Room and follow the Yemen mission, he could have learned a thing or three.

But then again, Trump boasted of knowing more than his generals.
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Sure again, lessons learned, inexperienced....did he in fact... fail to act? Did he fail his soldiers for the mission?, He was advised by those that were subject matter experts and with that, he expected them to execute the mission in the way they laid it out for him..... with regards to contingent plans and likely any E&E.


Sure could the POTUS learn more about it? 100% sure he could go through some basic military training, sit in the situation room blah blah blah.... Again I ask though...... what did he FAIL to do as a commander? Not adhere to previous request for enhanced security, not respond to direct action on a defensive structure?.......

We can arm chair quarterback all we want.... if he failed in his duty.....as the CinC, then lets lay it out.... but a mission was provided, his generals advised him it was a go. There was NO other reason NOT for him to say Ok, unless his generals advised him other wise........and he still approved it as a go... which that was NOT the case.
 
Exactice said:
With regards to knowing and not knowing...... How about this.

Lets say TRUMP, Inexperience knows nothing about the military, tells his commanders, I dont know what the hell this mission is, so NO go. While the commanders the ones that know are the ones telling him its good to go. How does that make any of the commander feel. Trump allowing the commanders to make the decision and he giving the go ahead is to show is confidence in his field commanders.

So because trump has no Idea, hes going to say no everytime, even though the Subject matter experts are saying yes...


this is a double edge sword, you are damned if you do, damned if you dont.....
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Well sure, and we cant exactly stand down for 6 months or a year to give Trump time to figure out how badly Obama managed the military, though all you need to do is watch the news feed to see that things really suck.
 
BrewerBob said:
The best commanders and NCOs give credit to their troops when things go well and accept responsibility when things go bad.

Now, I am not naive enough to expect the same behavior from Presidents. But if a President is going to take credit when things go well, which they almost all do, then they better accept responsibility when it goes bad.

I made the same point with Obama and previous Presidents as well. But right now Trump is on the receiving end because right now he is the C-in-C.
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Amen.
 
Mac77 said:
Trump did not plan or execute the mission so the failure was not his fault

But anti trumpsters do not know anything about war if they soldiers never get killed
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I am ex Military and I know where the buck stops.
 
JANFU said:
I am ex Military and I know where the buck stops.
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I dont think you do

Who got demoted after the attack on Pearl Harbor?

The fleet commander or FDR?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Oh it is very well founded speculation.
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So, errrr, mind presenting the foundation?


I'm looking for facts. I'm not looking for opinions, such as, "I think Obama sucks"
 
BrewerBob said:
The best commanders and NCOs give credit to their troops when things go well and accept responsibility when things go bad.

Now, I am not naive enough to expect the same behavior from Presidents. But if a President is going to take credit when things go well, which they almost all do, then they better accept responsibility when it goes bad.

I made the same point with Obama and previous Presidents as well. But right now Trump is on the receiving end because right now he is the C-in-C.
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President Trump isn't patting himself on the back for the Yemen raid. And no, it wasn't a failure.
 
Mac77 said:
I dont think you do

Who got demoted after the attack on Pearl Harbor?

The fleet commander or FDR?
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Lincoln never got demoted, either.
 
Exactice said:
Sure again, lessons learned, inexperienced....did he in fact... fail to act? Did he fail his soldiers for the mission?, He was advised by those that were subject matter experts and with that, he expected them to execute the mission in the way they laid it out for him..... with regards to contingent plans and likely any E&E.


Sure could the POTUS learn more about it? 100% sure he could go through some basic military training, sit in the situation room blah blah blah.... Again I ask though...... what did he FAIL to do as a commander? Not adhere to previous request for enhanced security, not respond to direct action on a defensive structure?.......

We can arm chair quarterback all we want.... if he failed in his duty.....as the CinC, then lets lay it out.... but a mission was provided, his generals advised him it was a go. There was NO other reason NOT for him to say Ok, unless his generals advised him other wise........and he still approved it as a go... which that was NOT the case.
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They sure don't make 'em like they used to.

truman.png
 
apdst said:
Lincoln never got demoted, either.
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Lincoln was not a field commander and neither is trump

Or obama who strutted like a peacock after bin laden was killed even though he was thousands of miles away and deserved no credit whatsoever
 
Rogue Valley said:
They sure don't make 'em like they used to.

truman.png
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On more than one occasion President Truman referred to the desk sign in public statements. For example, in an address at the National War College on December 19, 1952 Mr. Truman said, “You know, it’s easy for the Monday morning quarterback to say what the coach should have done, after the game is over. But when the decision is up before you – and on my desk I have a motto which says The Buck Stops Here’ – the decision has to be made.” In his farewell address to the American people given in January 1953, President Truman referred to this concept very specifically in asserting that, “The President–whoever he is–has to decide. He can’t pass the buck to anybody. No one else can do the deciding for him. That’s his job.”
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So the president’s decisions are his alone to make. That’s very different than the idea that the president must take responsibility for decisions he didn’t even make in the first place. And as Clinton acknowledged, micromanaging the security plans for the nation’s 275 worldwide diplomatic posts isn’t part of the president’s workload.
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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/10/buck-stops-here-clinton-obama-truman.html

LEARN
 
Mac77 said:
I dont think you do

Who got demoted after the attack on Pearl Harbor?

The fleet commander or FDR?
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Going to extremes to excuse Trump. I know full well accountability. Perhaps you should reflect upon that, not knowing full accountability is.
 
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