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Justice Department Reverses Obama Private Prison Order

upsideguy said:
No, I am not. I am talking about the inherent propensity for corruption. This has nothing to do with defining the contract; it has to do with the sin nature of man (including those that work for the justice system). Prisons have historically been a public function, not a private one. The burden of proof as to why this should be privatized is on those seeking to change the status quo. I gave you a clear example of what could (and does) go wrong. There is no real reason to privatize the process (you certainly have not presented one) and every reason to leave it in the hands of the government.
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Right, it's the public that demands that certain behaviors are segregated from everyone else, and it's the public that needs to take responsibility for that. Crime being used as an opportunity to enrich the few, hmm what does that remind me of, oh yeah, the mafia and drug cartels!
 
radcen said:
Apparently they do need to because they do do it.

By your estimation they are a fine-tuned profit-making machine and wouldn't spend money unnecessary, even for lobbying.
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Do you oppose hate crime penalties?
 
upsideguy said:
No, I am not. I am talking about the inherent propensity for corruption. This has nothing to do with defining the contract; it has to do with the sin nature of man (including those that work for the justice system). Prisons have historically been a public function, not a private one. The burden of proof as to why this should be privatized is on those seeking to change the status quo. I gave you a clear example of what could (and does) go wrong. There is no real reason to privatize the process (you certainly have not presented one) and every reason to leave it in the hands of the government.
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It's six of one; a half dozen of the other. The government is no more trustworthy. Look at the IRS targetting private citizens and the Tarmac Meeting.
 
Born Free said:
There would be no need for prisoners or harsher sentences, or any human decency issues, if these criminals practiced human decency and not commit a crime against humanity in the first place.
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Is, say, drug posession a "crime against humanity?"

Why do you hate the Eighth Amendment?
 
apdst said:
Private prisons don't need to lobby for harsher sentences. There is plenty of business, as it is.
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Private prisons have plenty of empty beds compared to public ones.

Who in the WH and GOP congress invested in private prisons before this decision?

This post was made before the two that follow me by fmw and Rogue Valley .
 
Risky Thicket said:
In Arizona private prison dark money helped pay for the election of the Tea Party governor and some of the major Tea Party legislators. We now have more prisons than we can use in Arizona. In fact after major problems with one private prison the state authorized the construction of another private prison.

Private prison industry buys politicians.

I'd like to see a revamping of the legal system from law enforcement to courts to sentencing to prisons. We have far too many people in prison.
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Some will say "well just stop committing crime!" Well in america that's not so easy, seeing as the average person commits 3 felonies a day. And why is that? Used to be strictly a public overcome with fear of crime (while enabling themselves to be unwittingly arrested) and politicians afraid to look weak on crime. Now a lot of the laws and sentences come from political bribes. The "show me your papers" law in arizona, before it was struck down, was conceived by for profit prisons. Some of the contracts literally require 90-100% occupancy, meaning they collude with the politicians, judges, and prosecutors to *create* criminals, even while actual crime is going down. No doubt this is behind Spicer's recent threat to send the feds into legal pot states (although this will ultimately fail)

"In a letter to 48 state governors in 2012, the largest for-profit private prison company in the US, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), offered to buy up and operate public state prisons. In exchange, states would have to sign a 20-year contract guaranteeing a 90 percent occupancy rate throughout the term....The report notes that contract clauses like this incentivize criminilization, and do nothing to promote rehabilitation, crime reduction or community building."

6 shocking revelations about how private prisons make money - Salon.com

It really just turns america into a police state. And if you're swayed remotely by the AG's claim that this is "good for business," remember he's supposed to represent the taxpayers and the people.

"Though crime has dropped by a third in the past decade, an occupancy requirement covering three for-profit prisons has forced taxpayers in Colorado to pay an additional $2 million"

And everyone suffers by this. Families, including their kids, can't see visit them because they charge outrageous fees for every minute. Non prisoners lose jobs due to prison labor. The victims don't get justice because the (few) wealthy inmates can buy "luxury cells"
 
Kobie said:
Is, say, drug posession a "crime against humanity?"

Why do you hate the Eighth Amendment?
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because he's cruel and unusual?
 
radcen said:
Could you expand on that?

The justice system's goal is (should be) to fill only as many beds as absolutely necessary, keeping all factors in sight and narrowly focused. A private corporation's goal is to fill as many beds as absolutely possible, ignoring all other factors. Please explain how they do not contradict each other.
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That is a matter of compensation. If the government pays by the bed then the prison will behave as you say. If they pay them by the month, the prison will try to have as few beds as possible to maximize profit. Smart business creates incentives to do what the business wants. Government should be guided by that. Now that we have some business people in government, the government may do things in a smarter way. The decision for government is whether it is cheaper to use private prisons instead of public ones. It looks like the government thinks private ones are less expensive.
 
upsideguy said:
No, I am not. I am talking about the inherent propensity for corruption. This has nothing to do with defining the contract; it has to do with the sin nature of man (including those that work for the justice system). Prisons have historically been a public function, not a private one. The burden of proof as to why this should be privatized is on those seeking to change the status quo. I gave you a clear example of what could (and does) go wrong. There is no real reason to privatize the process (you certainly have not presented one) and every reason to leave it in the hands of the government.
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If "the inherent propensity for corruption" is your reason in this case, government would have to be closed.
 
joG said:
I thought that Obama's argument that it was a choice for human decency to run prisons within government disingenuous. It is so blatantly false, that it is pathetic. The truth is that you get, what you pay for, if you make sure you do. And that there is more reason to be against public bureaucracies handling prisoners than private companies being closely monitored.
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The hell it is. A normal jail is not interested in keeping people artificially long in jail, in for profit prisons it is the best business model to keep people in jail as long as possible.

I do not think for-profit jails can be trusted when it comes to making sure prisoners to not sit in jail too long. For example a few bad conduct write ups (even if they weren't really bad conducts) would make sure a prisoner sits in jail for a few weeks/months/years more. And that makes them more money.

The same goes with for profit companies going into political lobbying for mandatory minimum sentences, electing judges that promise harsher punishments, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Jailing people should be a government function, not something that is done for profit.
 
joG said:
I thought that Obama's argument that it was a choice for human decency to run prisons within government disingenuous. It is so blatantly false, that it is pathetic. The truth is that you get, what you pay for, if you make sure you do. And that there is more reason to be against public bureaucracies handling prisoners than private companies being closely monitored.
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The problem is that the way contracts are structured gives prison companies incentive to keep people locked up longer. The programs central goal should be the administration of justice not simply to lock people up as long as possible.

And btw as you no doubt know those longer sentences translate to higher taxes for you.
 
Kobie said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...prison-order-reversed-by-trump-administration


For-profit incarceration is a stain on our allegedly "free" country, and shame on President Trump for allowing AG Sessions to pull this maneuver.

That said, I can't say this move is surprising. Trump is the "business-friendly" president, after all. Even at the cost of human decency.
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I have an idea that will grow revenue LIKE crazy

prisons are the end game so to speak of the 'criminal injustice system' in the US so, if prisons can be run 'for profit' then let's just run the whole system as such

privatize police departments; run them for profit

privatize the DAs office; run those for profit

privatize all the judges; more profit

let's just make EVERYTHING about money and that way we can lose sight about what's really important in America


oh, that's right; we have already done that ...... and look where that has gotten US .......
 
cuban smokes said:


I have an idea that will grow revenue LIKE crazy

prisons are the end game so to speak of the 'criminal injustice system' in the US so, if prisons can be run 'for profit' then let's just run the whole system as such

privatize police departments; run them for profit

privatize the DAs office; run those for profit

privatize all the judges; more profit

let's just make EVERYTHING about money and that way we can lose sight about what's really important in America


oh, that's right; we have already done that ...... and look where that has gotten US .......
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As for anything run by government, the details are in the contract. During your travels today, think about everything around you created and managed by the low bidder.

Here is another one for your list:

...For profit journalism; run those for a profit
 
Peter King said:
The hell it is. A normal jail is not interested in keeping people artificially long in jail, in for profit prisons it is the best business model to keep people in jail as long as possible.

I do not think for-profit jails can be trusted when it comes to making sure prisoners to not sit in jail too long. For example a few bad conduct write ups (even if they weren't really bad conducts) would make sure a prisoner sits in jail for a few weeks/months/years more. And that makes them more money.

The same goes with for profit companies going into political lobbying for mandatory minimum sentences, electing judges that promise harsher punishments, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Jailing people should be a government function, not something that is done for profit.
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If "A normal jail is not interested in keeping people artificially long in jail, in for profit prisons it is the best business model to keep people in jail as long as possible", then the government is negligent of its duty to formulate the property rights of the contract with the private sector properly and/or is not monitoring the company as it should. Bad governance does not justify giving more responsibility to the negligent party. The contrary is true and the government officials should be punished for negligence.
 
Gaius46 said:
The problem is that the way contracts are structured gives prison companies incentive to keep people locked up longer. The programs central goal should be the administration of justice not simply to lock people up as long as possible.

And btw as you no doubt know those longer sentences translate to higher taxes for you.
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The sentencing is done by courts and the negotiation of contracts leading to outcomes you do not want is not the fault of the companies. What you are saying is that the courts and government officials are negligent.
 
Hey, if people are comfortable with some of our most dangerous criminals being watched by guards making $9 an hour so the private prison executives can pocket millions in tax payer money, then let them enjoy it. I will just remind those people of what they said when the inevitable comes to pass.
 
Peter King said:
The hell it is. A normal jail is not interested in keeping people artificially long in jail, in for profit prisons it is the best business model to keep people in jail as long as possible.

I do not think for-profit jails can be trusted when it comes to making sure prisoners to not sit in jail too long. For example a few bad conduct write ups (even if they weren't really bad conducts) would make sure a prisoner sits in jail for a few weeks/months/years more. And that makes them more money.

The same goes with for profit companies going into political lobbying for mandatory minimum sentences, electing judges that promise harsher punishments, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Jailing people should be a government function, not something that is done for profit.
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You are either naive in the extreme, or, you don't understand how government works in America. Bureaucracies have budgets to maintain and increase.
 
joG said:
The sentencing is done by courts and the negotiation of contracts leading to outcomes you do not want is not the fault of the companies. What you are saying is that the courts and government officials are negligent.
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And to a great degree sentencing has been taken OUT of the hands of the courts and judges and assigned increasingly-longer "mandatory minimum" sentences. That's the doing of the legislators, who are lobbied by the companies to do so.
 
joG said:
The sentencing is done by courts and the negotiation of contracts leading to outcomes you do not want is not the fault of the companies. What you are saying is that the courts and government officials are negligent.
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Sentencing is done by courts in accordance with sentencing laws passed by legislatures which are lobbied by private prison companies for harsher sentences.

And yes what I'm saying is that government signing off on idiotic prison contracts.
 
fmw said:
That is a matter of compensation. If the government pays by the bed then the prison will behave as you say. If they pay them by the month, the prison will try to have as few beds as possible to maximize profit. Smart business creates incentives to do what the business wants. Government should be guided by that. Now that we have some business people in government, the government may do things in a smarter way. The decision for government is whether it is cheaper to use private prisons instead of public ones. It looks like the government thinks private ones are less expensive.
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It would go a long way to pay private corporations a flat fee per prison, whether they housed 1,000 inmates or 10,000. They could then manage their resources accordingly.

Not give them free reign, of course. Given that business people's incentives are profit first-and-always, there would need to be some kind of wholly transparent and independent oversight mechanism to make sure sanitary condition are being maintained, food being served and consumed (by prisoners), etc. We could include a financial bonus for every inspection passed.

If they don't like the conditions, they'd be free to decline to participate. The ultimate free market.

If we were to suddenly transform contracts to flat fee with incentives, it would be interesting to watch the lobbying efforts of said corporations. I'd bet they'd swing the other way, and would lobby for shorter sentences and fewer crimes.
 
radcen said:
It would go a long way to pay private corporations a flat fee per prison, whether they housed 1,000 inmates or 10,000. They could then manage their resources accordingly.

Not give them free reign, of course. Given that business people's incentives are profit first-and-always, there would need to be some kind of wholly transparent and independent oversight mechanism to make sure sanitary condition are being maintained, food being served and consumed (by prisoners), etc. We could include a financial bonus for every inspection passed.

If they don't like the conditions, they'd be free to decline to participate. The ultimate free market.

If we were to suddenly transform contracts to flat fee with incentives, it would be interesting to watch the lobbying efforts of said corporations. I'd bet they'd swing the other way, and would lobby for shorter sentences and fewer crimes.
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I don't know enough about it to opine. All I know is that the arguments for and against it are matters of compensation and incentive, not universal truth.
 
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