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The troubled ‘Kansas experiment’ goes to Washington

Incisor

Incisor

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So just like they destroyed Kansas, Conservatives want to destroy the rest of the country the same way. From the Miami Herald:

Brownback certainly changed Kansas — with tax cuts that carved a $340 million hole in the state budget through this summer, $900 million through the next year, without yet turbocharging its economy as he promised.

<snip>

Perhaps most damning of all, the state’s economic growth is flat, lagging even the tepid recession rebound of the country as a whole and the states that surround Kansas.
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There's another word for fanatical devotion to ideas that are false; zealotry.
 
Incisor said:
So just like they destroyed Kansas, Conservatives want to destroy the rest of the country the same way. From the Miami Herald:



There's another word for fanatical devotion to ideas that are false; zealotry.
Click to expand...

If anyone upholds Kansas as an economic example then they are insane. Massive budget hole, downgraded credit, robbing the highway fund, not paying into public retirement, and economic growth that lags behind the region and the economic growth that lags behind the national average. The Brownback experiment has clearly failed.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
If anyone upholds Kansas as an economic example then they are insane. Massive budget hole, downgraded credit, robbing the highway fund, not paying into public retirement, and economic growth that lags behind the region and the economic growth that lags behind the national average. The Brownback experiment has clearly failed.
Click to expand...

Huge tax cuts and 4.2% unemployment and you're complaining! :lol: If you really want a project, take on Detroit or any of the other major Democrat run cities.
 
JC Callender said:
Huge tax cuts and 4.2% unemployment and you're complaining! :lol: If you really want a project, take on Detroit or any of the other major Democrat run cities.
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Taxes correlate with unemployment rate?
Lets compare the region shall we:
Iowa: 3.9% unemployment rate
Nebraska: 2.5 unemployment rate
Colorado: 4.2% unemployment rate
South Dakota: 3.6% unemployment rate
Oklahoma: 4.1% unemployment rate
Only state in the region that has a higher unemployment rate is Missouri, but their economy is growing faster than Kansas.

Also its interesting to note that the unemployment rate in Kansas was dropping a lot quicker before the 2012 tax cuts took affect:
2ed9u3a.png

"So, no matter how you look at it – using “plain old” unemployment figures or the more comprehensive version – states in our region that didn’t follow Kansas’ failed tax policy are doing about the same as, or slightly better than, Kansas’ unemployment levels. And, the more comprehensive look at Kansas’ unemployment shows that our rate is still higher than it was before the recession."

Also its interesting to note that KS is actually currently loosing jobs.... :
"The Kansas unemployment rate rose to 4.4 percent in September as the state lost an estimated 2,100 private-sector jobs over the month, the Kansas Department of Labor said Friday. Over the year, the state has lost 6,300 private-sector jobs while government jobs grew both over the month and over the year." Kansas unemployment rate goes up for 4th consecutive month / LJWorld.com

Also there is not enough evidence that slashing tax cuts is the secret to a better economy.
States With No Income Tax: Better Or Worse To Live There? | Bankrate.com
2nc46qg.jpg
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Taxes correlate with unemployment rate?
Lets compare the region shall we:
Iowa: 3.9% unemployment rate
Nebraska: 2.5 unemployment rate
Colorado: 4.2% unemployment rate
South Dakota: 3.6% unemployment rate
Oklahoma: 4.1% unemployment rate
Only state in the region that has a higher unemployment rate is Missouri, but their economy is growing faster than Kansas.

Also its interesting to note that the unemployment rate in Kansas was dropping a lot quicker before the 2012 tax cuts took affect:
2ed9u3a.png

"So, no matter how you look at it – using “plain old” unemployment figures or the more comprehensive version – states in our region that didn’t follow Kansas’ failed tax policy are doing about the same as, or slightly better than, Kansas’ unemployment levels. And, the more comprehensive look at Kansas’ unemployment shows that our rate is still higher than it was before the recession."

Also its interesting to note that KS is actually currently loosing jobs.... :
"The Kansas unemployment rate rose to 4.4 percent in September as the state lost an estimated 2,100 private-sector jobs over the month, the Kansas Department of Labor said Friday. Over the year, the state has lost 6,300 private-sector jobs while government jobs grew both over the month and over the year." Kansas unemployment rate goes up for 4th consecutive month / LJWorld.com

Also there is not enough evidence that slashing tax cuts is the secret to a better economy.
States With No Income Tax: Better Or Worse To Live There? | Bankrate.com
2nc46qg.jpg
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Wow, I didn't know all those red states were doing so well...cool! Concerning Kansas though, people are working and it's ridiculous to admonish a state's unemployment number when it's 4.2%. Even if they aren't doing as well as the states around them, they're doing good for Kansas and good nationally. And Kansas isn't losing jobs, their last unemployment rate reported was 4.2% as of 12/16, not the 4.4% you reported, which btw is still lower than the Fed rate.

As I've pointed out earlier concerning tax cuts helping an economy, their sales tax revenue has been spiking as one would expect when the consumers get to keep more of their own money. You're slowly seeing the sales tax revenue take the place of the income tax revenue and if you look at their total revenue, they're pretty close to being on track to have their best year ever in 2017.
 
JC Callender said:
Huge tax cuts and 4.2% unemployment and you're complaining! :lol: If you really want a project, take on Detroit or any of the other major Democrat run cities.
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Virtually all major cities are ran by Democrats. Detroit is, but so is Denver, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Seattle and so on. Do you credit Democrats for the success of Houston? Being you blame them for the failure of Detroit is seems only logical that you would credit them with the success of cities like Houston or Seattle.

I live on the Kansas side of the KC metro. Prior to Brownback being elected governor, the state's moderate Republicans always held the most political power. As a result we have tax rates that were competitive with other states in the region, some of the best schools in the Midwest, great roads and infrastructure, solid economic growth and so on. Since Brownback's experiment, the Missouri side of the metro has been killing the Kansas side in terms of economic growth and job growth. Kansas has never been a high tax high spending state. Its always been a state that was fiscally restrained and had competitive tax rates. People moved to the Kansas side of the metro for the well funded solid performing schools.

What has resulted from Brownbacks "experiment", is you have a significant percentage of the state of Kansas' population living in Kansas but working in Missouri. Used to, I would be paying some state income taxes to Missouri and some to Kansas. Now I pay nothing to Kansas. I don't like paying taxes, but that's a piss poor way to run a state when many of your residents no longer have to pay taxes in your state. Moreover, they have tried to make it up the huge budget shortfalls by increasing sales taxes and fees. Of course, since most of us living within a few miles of the Missouri line, we just shop in Missouri for big purchases and thus avoid the sales tax increases as well.

The fact is, its been a failure. A huge failure and he won't admit it.
 
JC Callender said:
Wow, I didn't know all those red states were doing so well...cool! Concerning Kansas though, people are working and it's ridiculous to admonish a state's unemployment number when it's 4.2%. Even if they aren't doing as well as the states around them, they're doing good for Kansas and good nationally. And Kansas isn't losing jobs, their last unemployment rate reported was 4.2% as of 12/16, not the 4.4% you reported, which btw is still lower than the Fed rate.

As I've pointed out earlier concerning tax cuts helping an economy, their sales tax revenue has been spiking as one would expect when the consumers get to keep more of their own money. You're slowly seeing the sales tax revenue take the place of the income tax revenue and if you look at their total revenue, they're pretty close to being on track to have their best year ever in 2017.
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So they replace a progressive tax with a regressive tax and that is cause for celebration?
 
I prefer to listen to tax opinions from the people who actually pay measureable taxes to begin with.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
If anyone upholds Kansas as an economic example then they are insane. Massive budget hole, downgraded credit, robbing the highway fund, not paying into public retirement, and economic growth that lags behind the region and the economic growth that lags behind the national average. The Brownback experiment has clearly failed.
Click to expand...

Well, how about people on the left hold up the California Experiment.

Among the highest taxes and fees of any state in the US. The most generous "social safety net" programs in the Nation. World leading regulatory effort, and arguably the largest income gap in the Nation.

And the result?

$1.9B accounting 'error' adds to California deficit projection | Fox News

Should the discussion include educational attainment?

How about the number of years California ranked at or near the top in unemployment? As of December 2016, it ranked 40th. (Kansas ranked 19th)

https://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

Perhaps a discussion on long term liabilities should be included.....
 
ocean515 said:
Well, how about people on the left hold up the California Experiment.

Among the highest taxes and fees of any state in the US. The most generous "social safety net" programs in the Nation. World leading regulatory effort, and arguably the largest income gap in the Nation.

And the result?

$1.9B accounting 'error' adds to California deficit projection | Fox News

Should the discussion include educational attainment?

How about the number of years California ranked at or near the top in unemployment? As of December 2016, it ranked 40th. (Kansas ranked 19th)

https://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

Perhaps a discussion on long term liabilities should be included.....
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How about we have sense enough as a nation to reject both the California model on the one extreme and the Kansas model on the other extreme and see that the best path lies somewhere between the two?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Virtually all major cities are ran by Democrats. Detroit is, but so is Denver, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Seattle and so on. Do you credit Democrats for the success of Houston? Being you blame them for the failure of Detroit is seems only logical that you would credit them with the success of cities like Houston or Seattle.

I live on the Kansas side of the KC metro. Prior to Brownback being elected governor, the state's moderate Republicans always held the most political power. As a result we have tax rates that were competitive with other states in the region, some of the best schools in the Midwest, great roads and infrastructure, solid economic growth and so on. Since Brownback's experiment, the Missouri side of the metro has been killing the Kansas side in terms of economic growth and job growth. Kansas has never been a high tax high spending state. Its always been a state that was fiscally restrained and had competitive tax rates. People moved to the Kansas side of the metro for the well funded solid performing schools.

What has resulted from Brownbacks "experiment", is you have a significant percentage of the state of Kansas' population living in Kansas but working in Missouri. Used to, I would be paying some state income taxes to Missouri and some to Kansas. Now I pay nothing to Kansas. I don't like paying taxes, but that's a piss poor way to run a state when many of your residents no longer have to pay taxes in your state. Moreover, they have tried to make it up the huge budget shortfalls by increasing sales taxes and fees. Of course, since most of us living within a few miles of the Missouri line, we just shop in Missouri for big purchases and thus avoid the sales tax increases as well.

The fact is, its been a failure. A huge failure and he won't admit it.
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This is failure

Democrats Run America?s Ten Poorest Cities ? Eagle Rising
 
Born Free said:
This is failure

Democrats Run America?s Ten Poorest Cities ? Eagle Rising
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^
^
^
Intellectual dishonesty.

Democrats run virtually every major city and have for decades. When you run virtually every major city, it stands to reason that you would be running the most successful cities and the least successful cites.

For example, Democrats run Detroit. A very unsuccessful city. However, they also run Minneapolis an extremely successful city. They run Austin an extremely successful city. They run Denver an extremely successful city. They run Seattle an extremely successful city. They run Dallas, Houston, even Salt Lake City.

So are you will then to credit Democrats for the successes of those cities since you want to blame them for any city that is failing as well?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
How about we have sense enough as a nation to reject both the California model on the one extreme and the Kansas model on the other extreme and see that the best path lies somewhere between the two?
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If only that were possible. What would be left for people to complain about?
 
JC Callender said:
Wow, I didn't know all those red states were doing so well...cool! Concerning Kansas though, people are working and it's ridiculous to admonish a state's unemployment number when it's 4.2%.
Click to expand...

When your governor promises his tax cuts will lead to a ton of new jobs and you end up with the 10th worst job growth rate in the country then he opens himself up to criticism.
Yael T. Abouhalkah: Kansas has low but misleading unemployment rate under Gov. Sam Brownback | The Kansas City Star
 
JC Callender said:
Huge tax cuts and 4.2% unemployment and you're complaining! :lol: If you really want a project, take on Detroit or any of the other major Democrat run cities.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It is amazing (a lot of things have been amazing lately!) that the left and the Democrat loyalists attack Kansas for it's deficits without even a smidgen of self awareness of the catastrophic effects of the Dem alternative has had all over the country.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Virtually all major cities are ran by Democrats. Detroit is, but so is Denver, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Seattle and so on. Do you credit Democrats for the success of Houston? Being you blame them for the failure of Detroit is seems only logical that you would credit them with the success of cities like Houston or Seattle.

I live on the Kansas side of the KC metro. Prior to Brownback being elected governor, the state's moderate Republicans always held the most political power. As a result we have tax rates that were competitive with other states in the region, some of the best schools in the Midwest, great roads and infrastructure, solid economic growth and so on. Since Brownback's experiment, the Missouri side of the metro has been killing the Kansas side in terms of economic growth and job growth. Kansas has never been a high tax high spending state. Its always been a state that was fiscally restrained and had competitive tax rates. People moved to the Kansas side of the metro for the well funded solid performing schools.

What has resulted from Brownbacks "experiment", is you have a significant percentage of the state of Kansas' population living in Kansas but working in Missouri. Used to, I would be paying some state income taxes to Missouri and some to Kansas. Now I pay nothing to Kansas. I don't like paying taxes, but that's a piss poor way to run a state when many of your residents no longer have to pay taxes in your state. Moreover, they have tried to make it up the huge budget shortfalls by increasing sales taxes and fees. Of course, since most of us living within a few miles of the Missouri line, we just shop in Missouri for big purchases and thus avoid the sales tax increases as well.

The fact is, its been a failure. A huge failure and he won't admit it.
Click to expand...

I found it pretty difficult to find city proper unemployment rates instead of metropolitan areas. For instance, the difference between Detroit and the suburbs that in total make up Metro Detroit is in most cases night and day. There are many well to do suburbs that will bring Detroit's rate up if you consider it metro, and in the case of Houston, I had a hard time finding data for the city proper. But let's say the unemployment rate in Houston proper is good and it's been run by Democrats for over 50 years like Detroit has, it's still a rare example contributing to a very small percentage of successful Democrat run cities. The crime in Houston is horrendous, so I have a hard time believing that the city proper is teeming with jobs.

Concerning the sales tax, it was around 6.2% when Brownback entered office and it's 6.5% now, not a dramatic increase. It makes sense that those living close to the border of Missouri would cross over to take advantage of the 4.225% rate, but it won't make sense to those that aren't living close to make the trip. And you seem to believe there's a moral issue with giving the citizens back their own money to spend, but those who aren't living near the border and crossing over like you are purchasing in Kansas more and more, and the sales tax revenue is becoming a greater percentage of the revenue. If you really cared about Kansas and the revenue they're missing from income tax then you would purchase in Kansas with your generous tax cut rather than Missouri.
 
CriticalThought said:
So they replace a progressive tax with a regressive tax and that is cause for celebration?
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Instead of giving money to an inefficient government to never be seen again they're spending it on goods for themselves and their families. And you're against that why?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Taxes correlate with unemployment rate?
Lets compare the region shall we:
Iowa: 3.9% unemployment rate
Nebraska: 2.5 unemployment rate
Colorado: 4.2% unemployment rate
South Dakota: 3.6% unemployment rate
Oklahoma: 4.1% unemployment rate
Only state in the region that has a higher unemployment rate is Missouri, but their economy is growing faster than Kansas.

Also its interesting to note that the unemployment rate in Kansas was dropping a lot quicker before the 2012 tax cuts took affect:
2ed9u3a.png
Click to expand...

Except that the cost of living is not equal among states in the region nor is the tax burden. Colorado is the highest is per-capita income and has a state tax burden that is still 33% lower than Kansas (CO=9.41% versus KS=12.28%) and the average state tax burden in dollars between KS and CO is nearly identical ($5854 vs $5853) (source)

It would seem that those who are huge fans of big government and big taxes are only interested in superficial comparisons of surrounding states and the direction of the tax adjustments... maybe Kansas' primary problem is they need to cut the tax burden enough to compete with Colorado...
 
ocean515 said:
Perhaps a discussion on long term liabilities should be included.....
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Yes, let's have that discussion since you brought it up. When you talk about "long term" liabilities, how long term are you talking? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? Since it's hard to predict 12 months in advance of what revenue an economy will generate, I'm interested to know what revenue baseline you are using to determine these "long term liabilities". Because you could say that CA has a trillion-dollar liability, but if that liability is over 100 years, then that changes the context of the conversation, particularly if you are using revenue from the recession as the baseline measurement, which many of these Conservative "studies" do.

And Brown is underestimating revenues. Also, comparing CA to KS is like comparing apples to oranges. CA's deficit of $1.6B is less than Kansas' deficit of $1B simply because CA's economy is larger than KS. So if we adjust KS up or CA down, the % of the deficit in both cases shows CA's is minute compared to KS'. KS's GDP is $117B. CA's GDP is $2.448T. $1.6B of $2.448T is 0.006%. $1B of $117B is 0.8%. So which is larger?
 
Incisor said:
Yes, let's have that discussion since you brought it up. When you talk about "long term" liabilities, how long term are you talking? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? Since it's hard to predict 12 months in advance of what revenue an economy will generate, I'm interested to know what revenue baseline you are using to determine these "long term liabilities". Because you could say that CA has a trillion-dollar liability, but if that liability is over 100 years, then that changes the context of the conversation, particularly if you are using revenue from the recession as the baseline measurement, which many of these Conservative "studies" do.

And Brown is underestimating revenues. Also, comparing CA to KS is like comparing apples to oranges. CA's deficit of $1.6B is less than Kansas' deficit of $1B simply because CA's economy is larger than KS. So if we adjust KS up or CA down, the % of the deficit in both cases shows CA's is minute compared to KS'. KS's GDP is $117B. CA's GDP is $2.448T. $1.6B of $2.448T is 0.006%. $1B of $117B is 0.8%. So which is larger?
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Pick one. How about 30 years?

California’s unfunded pension debts may be larger than acknowledged | The Sacramento Bee

Understanding California’s public pension debt - Los Angeles Times

California?s $400 billion debt worries analysts - San Francisco Chronicle

Should we add in the I.O.U.'s to various funds the liberal super majority in Sacramento used to "balance" the budget over the last dozen years of so, and haven't paid back?

California reaches deep into special funds to pay for schools, prisons, social services | The Sacramento Bee
 
JC Callender said:
Instead of giving money to an inefficient government to never be seen again they're spending it on goods for themselves and their families. And you're against that why?
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Your statement made absolutely no sense in the context of my post. Do you even know what a regressive tax is?

What is a 'Regressive Tax'
A regressive tax is a tax that takes a larger percentage of income from low-income earners than from high-income earners. It is in opposition with a progressive tax, which takes a larger percentage from high-income earners. A regressive tax is generally a tax that is applied uniformly to all situations, regardless of the payer.



Read more: Regressive Tax Regressive Tax Definition | Investopedia
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook
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Let me put it this way. Poor Paul and Rich Ricky have very different incomes and wealth, but they both are limited in how much they can buy by how much they can consume. As such, an income tax benefits Poor Paul and a sales tax benefits Rich Ricky because Poor Paul has to pay a much larger portion of his discretionary income to pay a higher sales tax than Rich Ricky does.

Does that help you understand? If Poor Paul makes 30K a year, paying several hundred dollars a year more in taxes for goods and services impacts him far more than Rich Ricky who makes 100K a year.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Virtually all major cities are ran by Democrats. Detroit is, but so is Denver, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Seattle and so on. Do you credit Democrats for the success of Houston? Being you blame them for the failure of Detroit is seems only logical that you would credit them with the success of cities like Houston or Seattle.

I live on the Kansas side of the KC metro. Prior to Brownback being elected governor, the state's moderate Republicans always held the most political power. As a result we have tax rates that were competitive with other states in the region, some of the best schools in the Midwest, great roads and infrastructure, solid economic growth and so on. Since Brownback's experiment, the Missouri side of the metro has been killing the Kansas side in terms of economic growth and job growth. Kansas has never been a high tax high spending state. Its always been a state that was fiscally restrained and had competitive tax rates. People moved to the Kansas side of the metro for the well funded solid performing schools.

What has resulted from Brownbacks "experiment", is you have a significant percentage of the state of Kansas' population living in Kansas but working in Missouri. Used to, I would be paying some state income taxes to Missouri and some to Kansas. Now I pay nothing to Kansas. I don't like paying taxes, but that's a piss poor way to run a state when many of your residents no longer have to pay taxes in your state. Moreover, they have tried to make it up the huge budget shortfalls by increasing sales taxes and fees. Of course, since most of us living within a few miles of the Missouri line, we just shop in Missouri for big purchases and thus avoid the sales tax increases as well.

The fact is, its been a failure. A huge failure and he won't admit it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for an inside perspective.
 
JC Callender said:
I found it pretty difficult to find city proper unemployment rates instead of metropolitan areas. For instance, the difference between Detroit and the suburbs that in total make up Metro Detroit is in most cases night and day. There are many well to do suburbs that will bring Detroit's rate up if you consider it metro, and in the case of Houston, I had a hard time finding data for the city proper. But let's say the unemployment rate in Houston proper is good and it's been run by Democrats for over 50 years like Detroit has, it's still a rare example contributing to a very small percentage of successful Democrat run cities. The crime in Houston is horrendous, so I have a hard time believing that the city proper is teeming with jobs.
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Houston actually has a fairly low violent crime rate for a city of its size. The city covers over 500 square miles. Many of the jobs for the metro are indeed in the city proper. Hell it has 3 skylines.

Concerning the sales tax, it was around 6.2% when Brownback entered office and it's 6.5% now, not a dramatic increase. It makes sense that those living close to the border of Missouri would cross over to take advantage of the 4.225% rate, but it won't make sense to those that aren't living close to make the trip. And you seem to believe there's a moral issue with giving the citizens back their own money to spend, but those who aren't living near the border and crossing over like you are purchasing in Kansas more and more, and the sales tax revenue is becoming a greater percentage of the revenue. If you really cared about Kansas and the revenue they're missing from income tax then you would purchase in Kansas with your generous tax cut rather than Missouri.
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Localities have had to increase their sales taxes dramatically since he took office. It's just under 10% in the city limits where I live for example.

Everyone does everything they can to pay as low of a tax rate as they can. That is why I never criticized Trump for paying little in income taxes. We all try to reduce our taxes. This is why it is moronic to create a tax situation where your residents can easily just drive two miles over the state line to pay avoid taxation on any goods they buy. Its also why it is moronic to have a tax rate lower than your neighboring state when a large percentage of your residents work in that state and thus will then pay you nothing in income taxes. It is not about what is right or wrong, or moral or immoral, its basic math.
 
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