• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net neu

Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Fishking said:
Yeah...the speed that you access it at is your bandwidth. Bandwidth isn't data.
Click to expand...

Yea I wasn't thinking clearly, my mistake.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And what happens when Comcast is the only provider in your area or the two providers are both doing the same thing? This isn't the free market and the internet has become a necessary service for everyone.

Being anti-Net-Neutrality just gives Comcast new power to **** over its customers, it does not open the field for competition.
Click to expand...

The right is so ****ing stupid about the "free" market.

First, there is no such thing as a free market. A free market would require anarchy. It doesn't exist, anywhere.

Second, market principles don't control pricing when a consumer has no other option. When the consumer must buy a product (like electricity, internet, or healthcare), the necessary but limited demand requires a limited supply that acts as, at best, an oligopoly. An oligopoly can easily be bad for everyone involved other than the oligopoly.

Third, we have overwhelming evidence that we are already being abused by companies like Comcast. If we're going to make it easier for them to exploit the public, we'd have to be absolutely stupid to presume that they won't abuse that government help as much as possible (btw, that's not free market). When Comcast gets a >97% profit margin, that's excessive. That's a market failure. The market is already failing in this industry.

The only way for them to really grow their business is to **** over consumers even more. Unraveling net neutrality facilitates exactly that.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

The Mark said:
One thing I don't fully understand about this topic: How do the ISP companies justify putting a data cap on their services? I can see putting a price on higher bandwidth, as that requires more of their infrastructure to service - but total data downloaded doesn't change their cost in any way - it seems like it is purely an attempt to make money for doing nothing extra.
Click to expand...

Everyone already has internet. They can't grow profit by finding new customers. They can only do it by finding new ways to nickel and dime people.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Free Market my ass!!

When Comcast and Time Warner wanted to merge a VP of Comcast said the merger should be allowed because the 2 companies already DIDN'T compete against each other. The #1 and #2 cable companies DID NOT compete against each other.

These companies have already carved up the cities and neighborhoods to limit competition and the so call 'free market'

At a Congressional hearing about the merger>

Senator Lindsey Graham: “So, generally speaking, cable companies don’t compete with each other, is that what we’re saying?”

Comcast VP Cohen: "That is correct."
Click to expand...
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

The Mark said:
One thing I don't fully understand about this topic: How do the ISP companies justify putting a data cap on their services? I can see putting a price on higher bandwidth, as that requires more of their infrastructure to service - but total data downloaded doesn't change their cost in any way - it seems like it is purely an attempt to make money for doing nothing extra.
Click to expand...

Its because they are losing cable subscribers to Netflix and Amazon. People are watching way less cable television than they used to. Obviously the company's decision is that they shouldn't try to entice people to switch back with better service, they should just try and hamper their ability to watch anything else. Their ultimate goal is to either bring content of their own to their own streaming service, Verizon is doing this right now, or to "inconvenience their customers so that its not possible for them to spend the extra money to stream a TV show.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Let me give another example of this horrendous policy. On my cell phone because I have Verizon, I can watch all the playoff games data free because Verizon and the NFL have an agreement. This might seem like a great benefit for the consumer. And I certainly took advantage of it this past weekend when I wasn't at home. The problem is when we start this business with all streaming services, it will just turn back into what cable TV has been for a few decades now. Netflix will have a particular Verizon version, or a Time Warner version, or a Comcast version. Each app will only allow certain material, and each service is obviously going to go up. Netflix will go up because it has to pay millions to these criminals. Your cable company will increase their rates because they always do and they will tell you about these great new features where you can stream your favorite shows for free as long as you keep them as your provider.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Deuce said:
Describing net neutrality as "government control" is kinda missing the point.
Click to expand...

That's being nice, describing Net Nutrality as "goverment control" is equivalent to a retard describing physics as . . . yeaaaaaa numbers!
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Cardinal said:
People who've been hating on Net Neutrality will have that "Oh" moment only when those things start appearing on their bill or when their access to non-isp-proprietary sites is strangled to hell and back. And god forbid any of them are small business owners themselves and visitors to their sites drop off a cliff.

The English language has proven ineffective in explaining what net neutrality is.
Click to expand...

There will be no "Oh" moment with these people. They will deny it had anything to do with destroying net neutrality and blame liberals somehow.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Absentglare said:
Irrelevant.

Bandwidth is not the issue, profit is. They get more profit if they can force scarcity and charge a premium to eliminate it.

I'm an electrical engineer with years of experience in the networking industry. We developed some of the most advanced rules and guidelines to make telecommunication infrastructure as efficient as possible. The business goons are now going to force us to artificially introduce inefficiency so they can force more money out of consumers.

It is plainly predatory behavior and in a true market competition would prevent such despicable tactics. The problem is that government meddles enough to make competition impossible but we also made sure it provided reasonable service. Now those reasonable service protections are being needlessly unraveled by people who don't understand what they're doing.
Click to expand...

If you were honest, you'd blow the whistle not post on line in a forum an anecdote that fits your political narrative.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Kushinator said:
Bingo! I live a few steps from University of Chicago, and Xfinity is my only choice unless i want a 6mb/s alternative (i have 1000mb/s with comcast/xfinity).




Absolutely!



It gives them the power to push additional services onto people, in an effort to prevent cord-cutting. The overwhelming majority of their revenue stream comes from cable services.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I expect to see them elbowing out all the streaming tv services that have popped up with net neutrality in place. Like Dish's SlingTV. Or Sony Vue. DirecTV's stream service. Comcast can just limit their bandwidth and not cap their own tv services.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

ludin said:
Google has scrapped it's fiber roll out for that reason. THey couldn't make headway fast enough. expensive court costs and local restrictions were getting in their way.
now what they are going to do is roll out a new wireless internet service. now they just have to find a building or put at an antenna and they can hit hundreds of homes not
just 1 home per run.

more cost effective and they should be able to send TV signal as well.

hopefully with the reduction in cost the cost will go down as well.
Click to expand...

I don't think google has scrapped their fiber plans...
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

Renae said:
If you were honest, you'd blow the whistle not post on line in a forum an anecdote that fits your political narrative.
Click to expand...

You want to see an anecdote? Here:

29b4cd61c2550bf86a83d62862c1b505.png


Now, you want to entrust market forces with managing the internet. If those market forces were able to manage ISPs, i wouldn't be able to demonstrate the above graphic.

I pay half as much to have 1/3rd the latency, 8 times the download bandwidth, and 80 times the upload bandwidth. If market forces were able to maintain price efficiency, that could not occur. A competitor shouldn't be able to undercut and over-perform so dramatically.

As a gamer, you should care a great deal about latency and rate jitter. Be prepared to pay extra money simply for the ability to skype, game, or even use an IP phone service.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

The Mark said:
One thing I don't fully understand about this topic: How do the ISP companies justify putting a data cap on their services? I can see putting a price on higher bandwidth, as that requires more of their infrastructure to service - but total data downloaded doesn't change their cost in any way - it seems like it is purely an attempt to make money for doing nothing extra.
Click to expand...
What you are saying is true for data that is on the ISP's network. There is a lot of data that the ISP has to pull off the core, and the have to pay for what they pull off the core. So the cap protects them from paying more for data than you are paying them. The ISP does a lot of caching to mitigate the amount of data pulled from the core, but it is impossible to cache everything.

So you are correct in that data downloaded from their own network doesn't change their cost, but data downloaded from the core does increase their cost.

This also demonstrates why an ISP can allow their customers to stream the ISP's content without applying the data to the data cap. For instance, Comcast doesn't apply xfinity movies to thier data cap because, like you pointed out, it doesn't cost them anything extra. But if you watch Netflix, the data has to be pulled off the core, which does cost Comcast extra. Therefore, they guard the cost of you watching Netflix, while not having to guard against the cost of you watching xfinity.

Sent from my LG-V930 using Tapatalk
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

natsb said:
What you are saying is true for data that is on the ISP's network. There is a lot of data that the ISP has to pull off the core, and the have to pay for what they pull off the core. So the cap protects them from paying more for data than you are paying them. The ISP does a lot of caching to mitigate the amount of data pulled from the core, but it is impossible to cache everything.

So you are correct in that data downloaded from their own network doesn't change their cost, but data downloaded from the core does increase their cost.

This also demonstrates why an ISP can allow their customers to stream the ISP's content without applying the data to the data cap. For instance, Comcast doesn't apply xfinity movies to thier data cap because, like you pointed out, it doesn't cost them anything extra. But if you watch Netflix, the data has to be pulled off the core, which does cost Comcast extra. Therefore, they guard the cost of you watching Netflix, while not having to guard against the cost of you watching xfinity.

Sent from my LG-V930 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
How much does this pulling of data from the core cost?
How much extra are we talking for, say, streaming a 2-3 hr long movie from Netflix (which I use) vs streaming a video from xfinity (which I do not use)?

Given the popularity of Netflix, wouldn't it make far more sense to just cache the most popular Netflix movies, rather than charging people more if they watch anything on Netflix?

It can't be THAT expensive to store even a terabyte-size video, if such exists.

Why does it even cost the ISP to pull data off this core?
What is this Core you speak of?


I need more information.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

reinoe said:
My assertion was that the government provided these telecoms with monopolies which is supported by the article. Instead of popping in with snide comments try to follow the conversation.
Click to expand...

That was not your assertion at all. Here was what you asserted:

reinoe said:
Yes, and the government created most of that initial infrastructure that the majority of telecoms enjoy. Hence the government gave them their monopolies.
Click to expand...

Kusinator and your article demonstrated that the first part of your post was completely false. Before you say something, you might want to fact check to make sure that what you say isn't completely incorrect.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

poweRob said:
I don't think google has scrapped their fiber plans...
Click to expand...

Google Fiber: Why the expansion was stopped | The Charlotte Observer

they are changing direction. They are going to try and use a new wireless spectrum that was just opened up by the FCC.
they are going to run wireless antenna's. It will work I think similar to a cell service hopefully.

where similar to dish they put a antenna on your house and you pick up a node so far away.
they can deploy faster and without all of the red tape they are running into with local politics.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

I see a bunch of people bringing up netflix.


The netflix/comcast court case had NOTHING to do with net neutrality.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

ludin said:
Google Fiber: Why the expansion was stopped | The Charlotte Observer

they are changing direction. They are going to try and use a new wireless spectrum that was just opened up by the FCC.
they are going to run wireless antenna's. It will work I think similar to a cell service hopefully.

where similar to dish they put a antenna on your house and you pick up a node so far away.
they can deploy faster and without all of the red tape they are running into with local politics.
Click to expand...

Yeah I haven't followed it much lately but the last I heard is google gave up trying to pick towns to implement fiber and just told cities to apply for it from them and that if they did, they had to have a list of legal remedies already resolved before they'd even consider coming to your town.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

poweRob said:
Yeah I haven't followed it much lately but the last I heard is google gave up trying to pick towns to implement fiber and just told cities to apply for it from them and that if they did, they had to have a list of legal remedies already resolved before they'd even consider coming to your town.
Click to expand...

they tried that and some cities did and ATT, comcrap, TWC etc ... sued.
over the use of a public utility which are telephone poles.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

ludin said:
they tried that and some cities did and ATT, comcrap, TWC etc ... sued.
over the use of a public utility which are telephone poles.
Click to expand...

Ahhhh.... corporations clogging our court system with frivolous lawsuits to maintain their monopolies.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

poweRob said:
Ahhhh.... corporations clogging our court system with frivolous lawsuits to maintain their monopolies.
Click to expand...

pretty much. although I think they lost the court costs were outrageous.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

The Mark said:
How much does this pulling of data from the core cost?
Click to expand...

I don't know. I work with a lot of ISPs, but they don't seem willing to talk about their cost. Therefore, I operate in the don't ask, don't tell mode.

How much extra are we talking for, say, streaming a 2-3 hr long movie from Netflix (which I use) vs streaming a video from xfinity (which I do not use)?
Click to expand...

This a big "It depends". A lot of things make a difference such as compression rate, codec. caching tiers, etc.

Given the popularity of Netflix, wouldn't it make far more sense to just cache the most popular Netflix movies, rather than charging people more if they watch anything on Netflix?
Click to expand...

There is a huge amount of caching going on. The ISPs want to pay as little as necessary to access other people's data. Netflix has been trying for a very long time to have their servers placed directly on Comcast's network to avoid the core and its extra cost, but Comcast said no. Instead, Comcast and Netflix have recently reached a deal where Netflix is going to pay a fee to ensure their streams run well on Comcast's network.

It can't be THAT expensive to store even a terabyte-size video, if such exists.
Click to expand...

You are correct. The issue becomes costly when millions of terabyte sized files are being stored.

Why does it even cost the ISP to pull data off this core?
Click to expand...

Same answer as first question above.

What is this Core you speak of?
Click to expand...

It is the Tier 1 network that ISPs use to talk to each other. For instance when someone on a Comcast network in New York request data that is on a Verizon network in Florida, that data is transferred via the core routers. It is also commonly referred to as the Internet Backbone. So users (you and me) access an edge network (Comcast, ATT, etc), who in turn access the core network (he.net, etc).

internet-infrastructure1.gif


need more information.
Click to expand...

I hope this helps.
 
Re: Trump names new FCC chairman: Ajit Pai, who wants to take a 'weed whacker' to net

ludin said:
pretty much. although I think they lost the court costs were outrageous.
Click to expand...

But less cost than what they'd lose if google moved into town.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom