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Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at risk'

Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Blue_State said:
I really want the solar powered roof shingles. Those are going to be awesome.
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Not really unless you have 0 shade on your tree. the whole purpose of solar panels is to capture the maximum amount of light possible.
roof shingles do not do that as where the sun is you would have a good percentage pointed away from the sun unless you have a flat roof
which has other issues.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
US fossil fuel subsidies match them.
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take away all the tax credits given to oil producers and the tax credits, loans and cash gifts to alternative energy and see what happens.

In America the federal government pays 30% of the cost to homeowners for installing solar panels on their home

Without that gift solar panel sales would practically disappear
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Mac77 said:
take away all the tax credits given to oil producers and the tax credits, loans and cash gifts to alternative energy and see what happens.

In America the federal government pays 30% of the cost to homeowners for installing solar panels on their home

Without that gift solar panel sales would practically disappear
Click to expand...

The subsisdies match, slightly favouring oil, in fact.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
The subsisdies match, slightly favouring oil, in fact.
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except that oil (i,e, fossil fuel) provides 60% of our energy while alternative energy only contributes 5%
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
The subsisdies match, slightly favouring oil, in fact.
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tax breaks that all industries take are not subsidies.

they are typical business deductions for any and all mining companies.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

ludin said:
tax breaks that all industries take are not subsidies.

they are typical business deductions for any and all mining companies.
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Thats a good point

Exxon is just as entitled to investment tax credits as GE or Starbucks

Whereas the green energy companies are getting special tax credits because the are green
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

ludin said:
tax breaks that all industries take are not subsidies.

they are typical business deductions for any and all mining companies.
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They are monies normally due, which they are excused from paying, therefore subsidies.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
They are monies normally due, which they are excused from paying, therefore subsidies.
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Other than the oil depletion allowance they are not special subsidies for oil companies the way the green energy special subsidies are

Remove the ODA and the green energy subsidies an let the free market decide
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
They are monies normally due, which they are excused from paying, therefore subsidies.
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wrong but keep thinking that.
they are deductible businesses expenses that all businesses get.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Mac77 said:
Thats a good point

Exxon is just as entitled to investment tax credits as GE or Starbucks

Whereas the green energy companies are getting special tax credits because the are green
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and where taxpayers are given tax credits in order to get them to buy it.
if I could afford it I would buy some as well.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

ludin said:
and where taxpayers are given tax credits in order to get them to buy it.
if I could afford it I would buy some as well.
Click to expand...

Without the 30% tax subsidy to home owners solar panel sales would be almost nil
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Photovoltaic solar has two big issues!
One: most systems need to be grid attached to function
as people expect electricity to function (on demand).
Grid attachment requires permission from the grid owner.
Current laws make adding solar homeowners unattractive to grid owners.
Two: As the percent of solar providers grow, supply and demand peaks and valley's will become much greater,
and create problems with the existing grid.
Lastly the current grid, does not have the capacity to add the energy required for transport
on top of the existing loads.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

apdst said:
You haven't demonstrated anything.
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Mac77 said:
take away all the tax credits given to oil producers and the tax credits, loans and cash gifts to alternative energy and see what happens.

In America the federal government pays 30% of the cost to homeowners for installing solar panels on their home

Without that gift solar panel sales would practically disappear
Click to expand...

Mac77 said:
Without the 30% tax subsidy to home owners solar panel sales would be almost nil
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Homeowner solar panels aren't really what we're focussing on. This is about utility scale.

Solar has been shown to be cheaper than ff in many places (over 30 countries: http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Renewable_Infrastructure_Investment_Handbook.pdf) In Chile, new solar plants offer solar generated electricity at half the cost of natural gas. Globally, Bloomberg predicts that on average solar will be the cheapest way to produce energy overall (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-on-earth-look-skyward-as-coal-falls-to-solar).

It has been shown that the reason it isn't cheaper in many places is due to the excessive regulations on solar that lead to crippling soft costs. The trend of declining cost of solar is only going to continue as the technology improves, and people become more comfortable with the idea of solar power (right now, many solar utility deals tread new ground - which obviously makes them more expensive as they cannot use existing knowledge). The sooner we get on it, the more money the American govt and consumer will save.

Note how none of you anti-solar folk have been able to quote any real figures? It's because you have an ideological bias against renewable energy even when it makes more economic sense.

Solar and renewables aren't perfect, they still have issues (such as intermittency, although solar utility plant energy projections are 99% accurate). I'd still like to see them as part of a balanced grid with nuclear, but they are quickly becoming a better economic alternative to the fossil fuels that have been propped up by the government for almost a century. Time to do away with govt interference in the sector.

longview said:
Photovoltaic solar has two big issues!
One: most systems need to be grid attached to function
as people expect electricity to function (on demand).
Grid attachment requires permission from the grid owner.
Current laws make adding solar homeowners unattractive to grid owners.
Two: As the percent of solar providers grow, supply and demand peaks and valley's will become much greater,
and create problems with the existing grid.
Lastly the current grid, does not have the capacity to add the energy required for transport
on top of the existing loads.
Click to expand...

Agreed the grid is an issue. It's an infrastructure project that definitely needs looking into.

Thankfully, infrastructure improvement has bipartisan support. Lets see if that kind of bipartisan support will prove to be more powerful than the fossil fuel lobbies, who are fine with the grid how it is.
 
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Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Mac77 said:
Without the 30% tax subsidy to home owners solar panel sales would be almost nil
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That may not be entirely true, the numbers have dropped to the point that subsidized cost now
could be less than the subsidized cost as recently as 5 years ago.
From a retirement investment standpoint, solar could be a good hedge against inflation.
Solar Sky 6.24 kW Grid‑Tied Solar System with SMA and 24x Astronergy 260 Panels - Wholesale Solar
A system like this could save almost $80 a month. Where else could you invest say $12,000 and save $960 a year?
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Nilly said:
Agreed the grid is an issue. It's an infrastructure project that definitely needs looking into.

Thankfully, infrastructure improvement has bipartisan support. Lets see if that kind of bipartisan support will prove to be more powerful than the fossil fuel lobbies, who are fine with the grid how it is.
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The electrical grid, for the most part is private property, It's improvements will likely be subsidized, but it is unlikely the
oil companies would be opposed, most are large electricity producers themselves through co generation.
The main problem that have large numbers of solar producers on on the grid, is controlling the supply vs the load.
With a natural gas fired plant, they can throttle it up and down, same for Nuclear and coal.
Home solar does not work that way, and as the percentage increases, the problems will only get worse.
To accommodate solar, the grid will need ether storage, or a massive dump load, so the surplus does not
damage the grid infrastructure.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

I remember in the late 80's or early 90's the Physics forum had a long discussion about when Solar would become viable.
At the time, I stated when we see solar power companies powering their own factories with their own products,
we would be getting close. My logic was that the factory only had to pay what it cost to produce the panels,
and if the power to cost ratio was not viable to them, people who had to pay the full price did not have a chance.
No Tesla is powering, one of it's factories with it's own panels.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/tesla-gigafactory-powered-massive-rooftop-162148807.html
I guess we are getting closer to solar viability.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

apdst said:
I can do this all day.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dail...shows-the-collapse-of-green-energy-in-europe/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-clean-tech-industry-falls-into-rapid-decline

https://www.google.com/amp/www.forb...disaster-a-cautionary-tale-for-world-leaders/
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From your link:

The plunge in European fortunes comes as renewable energy is burgeoning around the world.

[...]

But he also pointed to mistakes made by policymakers in member states, which he said had created a “boom-bust” cycle by initially showing strong support for renewables then rapidly rowing back as they feared the expense of successful subsidies.

“The tragedy is that Europe lost its renewable energy mojo just as costs were plummeting to the point where green power is fully competitive without subsidies in more and more parts of the world.”

He pointed to costs of wind energy generation of $0.04 per kilowatt hour in the US, and said this should be possible in the UK, with the right support from government. “[Politicians and opponents of wind] have failed to grasp that one of the reasons why costs are higher in the UK is because of the policy uncertainty they helped to create.”

“Twenty years ago, Europeans were still teaching China how to draft environmental laws. Ten years ago, Europe saw China just as a market for its green exports. Today, China is on the verge of dominating the global clean energy economy. The EU must act decisively to stay in the race.”
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:doh

Next time, try to read your links before you post.

Solar is becoming viable, whether you like it or not. Time to embrace it, for the economic reasons, as well as the environmental.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Nilly said:
From your link:



:doh

Next time, try to read your links before you post.

Solar is becoming viable, whether you like it or not. Time to embrace it, for the economic reasons, as well as the environmental.
Click to expand...

The gist of the article is that the wind farm business is failing,bbecause of a lack of government support (i.e. subsidies).

Next time try to read the whole thing.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

apdst said:
I can do this all day.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dail...shows-the-collapse-of-green-energy-in-europe/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-clean-tech-industry-falls-into-rapid-decline

https://www.google.com/amp/www.forb...disaster-a-cautionary-tale-for-world-leaders/
Click to expand...

I recall you have a penchant for long lists of links which don't say what you think they do, so I'll pass. Renewables are the future, you can sit in the past wrapped in your blanky if you want.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

apdst said:
The gist of the article is that the wind farm business is failing,bbecause of a lack of government support (i.e. subsidies).

Next time try to read the whole thing.
Click to expand...

Except the first one really has little to actually do with solar and argues strawmen. The second one is pro-renewable. And the third one is 6 years old. Solar prices have fallen 50% in that time.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Nilly said:
Except the first one really has little to actually do with solar and argues strawmen. The second one is pro-renewable. And the third one is 6 years old. Solar prices have fallen 50% in that time.
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Oh, you don't talk about wind, do you? :lamo
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

apdst said:
Oh, you don't talk about wind, do you? :lamo
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I know a fair bit about solar so I know that it's feasible. I don't know as much about wind.

I don't talk BS about stuff I don't know about, unlike you.
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
I recall you have a penchant for long lists of links which don't say what you think they do, so I'll pass. Renewables are the future, you can sit in the past wrapped in your blanky if you want.
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The future? It doesn't sound too optimistic.

The question of efficiency is critical to any informed discussion of wind energy. Wind turbines produce less energy than their “maximum capacity” rating would have us believe. Due to the fluctuation of wind currents—not exactly a novel discovery—turbines actually produce around 26.9 percent of the energy they could in theory generate. This is known as their “capacity factor.” By contrast, conventional power plants tend to have a capacity factor of 40 to 80 percent. This has one obvious ramification: Wind farms are less efficient and cost-effective than non-renewable sources of energy.

Wind Farms: Not So Green | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson
Click to expand...
 
Re: Trump urged to ditch AGW denial by 630 major firms who warn it 'prosperity at ris

Manc Skipper said:
I recall you have a penchant for long lists of links which don't say what you think they do, so I'll pass. Renewables are the future, you can sit in the past wrapped in your blanky if you want.
Click to expand...

There is a huge difference between a common sense type of transition from fossil fuels to green energy, and a penalty structured transition.

Nobody is arguing against green & renewable energy, and most everyone I speak with wants it..... including myself.

People just don't appreciate being strong armed in the process while the technology is still in the development stages.

We will get there, but it will take time.

The good earth isn't going anywheres for the next 5-6 billion years. By then, a dying sun will cook us all anyways. ;)
 
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