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Thread: Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break[W:262]

  1. #21
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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    We are speaking specifically about the income tax breaks Brownback passed in Kansas as a blueprint for the rest of the nation.

    I'm not doing your work for you.
    1. A blueprint for two different economies will probably not work, as their structures are quite different. That is why homogenization of taxes in federations or groups of nations is such a bad idea.
    2. No problem. I did enough fiscal and tax policy at the university and have kept up developments. Admittedly my specialties in economics and the research I did was other than this topic, but I don't really need assistance with the literature. So thank you very much indeed, but only should you have some rather astounding research that turns over the present state of the arts, you needn't worry about literature for me.

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Thats a shortfall in projections. According to the actual numbers revenue is up.
    Where's 2012 and 2013? And no, it's not a shortfall in projections, but rather actual revenue.


    Taxes are higher now than before the tax cuts in 2012, when revenue was 6.1bn
    Not income taxes. Excise taxes, yes, but those have more of an impact on the poor and middle class than the 1%. And secondly, you say revenue was $6.1B in 2012, then you say that revenue was below 2012 levels for 2013, 2014, and 2015. It took 4 years for revenue to reach what it was prior to the tax cuts. And where's all the growth? KS lagged the nation in GDP growth over that same period.
    Last edited by Incisor; 01-10-17 at 03:26 PM.

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    That's just not true, otherwise they would have made those cuts. Don't you wonder why all these republicans force the government to take a pay cut without being prepared to deal with the consequences? It's because they LIE to get the tax cut passed. Hold them accountable for their LIE, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    So it takes spending cuts in order for tax cuts to work? Brownback said the tax cuts would be "a shot of adrenaline". What adrenaline takes more than 5 years to kick in?
    I never said that tax cuts alone aren't a good thing. What I was trying to say was that they done best when coupled with spending cuts. By themselves, tax cuts help, add in spending cuts and they help a lot more. Then throw in systems which reduce the need for spending and you have the best situation. Tax increase just increase spending, spending just enables more spending (by building dependency).
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    1. A blueprint for two different economies will probably not work, as their structures are quite different. That is why homogenization of taxes in federations or groups of nations is such a bad idea.
    It's not a blueprint for economies, it's a blueprint for taxation. And the blueprint shows serious structural flaws in the taxation in Kansas. BTW - Mitch McConnell said when the KS tax cuts were passed that he wanted to do the same thing federally.

    Your second point seems like a cop-out, cut-and-run to me. You wouldn't believe me if I said I was Tom Brady, so why should I believe you when you make claims about yourself?

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    What I was trying to say was that they done best when coupled with spending cuts.
    The whole premise behind tax cuts is that it leads to growth. That premise has never once been proven. Spending cuts have no impact on the effect tax cuts have on the economy. Conservatives know this, but continue pushing tax cuts because their motives are to starve the government of revenue in order to manufacture a deficit which is then used as an excuse to cut spending.


    By themselves, tax cuts help, add in spending cuts and they help a lot more.
    How's that? The two things are mutually exclusive when it comes to the economy. Tax cuts aren't more effective if there are spending cuts. They have nothing to do with one another.


    Then throw in systems which reduce the need for spending and you have the best situation.
    I don't know what this means.


    Tax increase just increase spending, spending just enables more spending (by building dependency).
    Spending is how the economy grows. At the end of the day, the cashier at Best Buy doesn't care from where you got the money to buy that new flat screen TV.

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    The right realized that they cannot really adopt an explicit "let people starve to death" policy, but they needed to retain the goal of stealing from the poor to give to the rich, so they approached it from a budgetary standpoint by using tax cuts and their resulting deficits to force spending cuts.
    That "forced spending cuts" part IS working in Kansas. Predictably, the only citizens who like the results are the Koch brothers and ALEC flunkies who live there. What Brownback promised was that businesses would flock there to take advantage of their little utopia and everyone would win. If anything, the opposite is happening. Now ALEC is writing apologetics claiming that their policies are having a hard time working in KS because is has a one dimensional economy.

    ALEC at Moderate Party of Kansas


    Kansas ROADmap may be Less Traveled for a Reason - MainStream Coalition

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Person View Post
    Kansas destroyed its revenue stream.

    You can quote theory all you like, but this and prior federal attempts at supply side tax policy have simply failed to do what that theory said it would do.
    You might want to take a little more differentiating view of fiscal policies. I realize that the political people and less technical media tend to simplify and give the simplifications populist spin. I watched a Bernie Sanders demo of this today on CNN. It was a horrible mixture of true tidbits, half truths and outrageous falsehood. That is how this is. But alone the use of terms like supply side policies is awfully deceptive, if it isn't accompanied in professional expertise.

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You might want to take a little more differentiating view of fiscal policies.
    Why? We can simply look at Kansas' poor economic growth post-tax cuts and form a conclusion based on that. KS' economic growth was below the US' over the period of the Brownback Tax Cuts. There's no way around it; tax cuts are a failed policy idea with nefarious motives.


    But alone the use of terms like supply side policies is awfully deceptive, if it isn't accompanied in professional expertise.
    It doesn't matter how or what you call them, trickle-down, supply-side, it all results in the same thing: poor growth and increased deficits.

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Incisor View Post
    It's not a blueprint for economies, it's a blueprint for taxation. And the blueprint shows serious structural flaws in the taxation in Kansas. BTW - Mitch McConnell said when the KS tax cuts were passed that he wanted to do the same thing federally.

    Your second point seems like a cop-out, cut-and-run to me. You wouldn't believe me if I said I was Tom Brady, so why should I believe you when you make claims about yourself?
    As I said above, I haven't enough information of the policy mix used in Kansas to give more than the textbook opinion and haven't received the impression that any of the commentary had such.

    As to point two, I was only warning you of the impression opinions like the one you issued make on informed persons. But be my guest and embarrass yourself. Maybe the clapping from those that prefer populism feels more rewarding to you. It is certainly easier that applying economics.

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    Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Reducing taxes and spending increases efficiency
    No, it doesn't. It only increases debt, as we've seen in Kansas, Louisiana, Arizona, Wisconsin, and nationally during Bush the Dumber.


    if the correct taxes are cut
    Ah, so the goalposts move. So which taxes are the "correct" ones to cut? Let me guess what you'll say; income and business taxes, right?


    non public goods and such expenditures
    Such as defense spending? Yeah, we could definitely cut spending there. Hard to see from where else you can cut since Medicare, Social Security, and Defense make up about 80% of the budget.

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