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European Leaders Gather to Grapple With Donald Trump’s Victory

 
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sanman said:
Straw Man Argument.
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Don’t make stupid statements then.

sanman said:
Conservative Merkel was until recently giving public condemnation of multiculturalist policies in Europe - but now she's incongruously flip-flopped, and is suddenly trying to import as many non-Europeans as possible, at breakneck speed, with predictably destabilizing results. The reason for her flip-flop (sudden embrace of mass immigration) is glaringly obvious: in her political desperation, she seeks to demographically alter Europe, in order to facilitate the continuation of her mandate. She's trying to rig the system to keep herself (or at least her agenda) in power.
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Rubbish. There is no “rush to import as many non-Europeans a possible”. There’s nothing other way to put it, this is simply a lie.
 
HonestJoe said:
Don’t make stupid statements then.
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Yours was the stupid statement:
"If you don’t expect to win the next election in a couple of years’ time, why bother actually doing anything in office?"

The EUrocrats aren't going to bow out of office, they're going to fight to the end to cling to power.

Rubbish. There is no “rush to import as many non-Europeans a possible”. There’s nothing other way to put it, this is simply a lie.
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What do you call Merkel importing in all these refugees from Syria then? The German people are rebelling against her over this. Are you pretending that she's serving the will of voters by bringing in so many refugees? She is not.
 
sanman said:
What do you call Merkel importing in all these refugees from Syria then? The German people are rebelling against her over this. Are you pretending that she's serving the will of voters by bringing in so many refugees? She is not.
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The refugees would come regardless and there are long existing international and European agreements regarding nations accepting refugees. Refugees temporary residents with a specific legal status which won’t, for example, include the right to vote.

There are long running issues with illegal immigrants coming to Europe from North Africa and the Middle East (and also immigrants coming from Eastern Europe to the West, though you don’t seem to care about them for some reason). Again though, they’re going to come anyway and have been from different places for decades. Merkel (or anyone else) hasn’t done anything actively “import as many as possible”. Illegal immigrants don’t get to vote either and even legal immigrants, especially non-EU ones, are generally not allowed to vote in Germany (and typically Western European countries don’t have the same scale of voter registration complexities and controversies as they seem to in the US).
 
HonestJoe said:
The refugees would come regardless and there are long existing international and European agreements regarding nations accepting refugees. Refugees temporary residents with a specific legal status which won’t, for example, include the right to vote.

There are long running issues with illegal immigrants coming to Europe from North Africa and the Middle East (and also immigrants coming from Eastern Europe to the West, though you don’t seem to care about them for some reason). Again though, they’re going to come anyway and have been from different places for decades. Merkel (or anyone else) hasn’t done anything actively “import as many as possible”. Illegal immigrants don’t get to vote either and even legal immigrants, especially non-EU ones, are generally not allowed to vote in Germany (and typically Western European countries don’t have the same scale of voter registration complexities and controversies as they seem to in the US).
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So you're pretending to me that German political parties, including Merkel's own coalition partners, are revolting against Merkel for policies allowing the influx of refugees in spite of her innocence?

 
If European leaders are really that insecure about a Trump presidency, then It only confirms their own weak leadership, and dependency.
 
HonestJoe said:
The refugees would come regardless and there are long existing international and European agreements regarding nations accepting refugees. Refugees temporary residents with a specific legal status which won’t, for example, include the right to vote.

There are long running issues with illegal immigrants coming to Europe from North Africa and the Middle East (and also immigrants coming from Eastern Europe to the West, though you don’t seem to care about them for some reason). Again though, they’re going to come anyway and have been from different places for decades. Merkel (or anyone else) hasn’t done anything actively “import as many as possible”. Illegal immigrants don’t get to vote either and even legal immigrants, especially non-EU ones, are generally not allowed to vote in Germany (and typically Western European countries don’t have the same scale of voter registration complexities and controversies as they seem to in the US).
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While the EU could rely on the dictators in North Africa to dissuade people from transferring to Europe, it worked okay. That has changes with the lack of hard suppression. As for the main recent groups from Syria the Europeans were less adept from the start. They did not prevent the civil war escalating, when it would have been possible even though the US would have supported it.

It would be important to get the UN more involved in protecting the populations around the world, but many national elites are very much opposed to this in spite of the obvious advantages to the peoples of the globe.
 
RetiredUSN said:
If European leaders are really that insecure about a Trump presidency, then It only confirms their own weak leadership, and dependency.
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Yes. The hateful speeches from the EU and its member governments are a demonstration of how bad the the local elites think the state of their affairs are.
 
sanman said:
So you're pretending to me that German political parties, including Merkel's own coalition partners, are revolting against Merkel for policies allowing the influx of refugees in spite of her innocence?
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Not at all. I never said Merkel’s actual policies in relation to refugees and immigration were any good or denied that her political opponents are strongly challenging them (though that’s politics, so typically not with any kind of altruistic reasons). That is about how Germany, Europe and the World deals with the movement of peoples that is, in the short term at least, unavoidably happening. It has nothing to do with actively seeking to move more people than will choose (to try) to move on their own initiative.

I was specifically challenging the unsupported assertion that Merkel is “trying to import as many non-Europeans as possible, at breakneck speed” because “she seeks to demographically alter Europe, in order to facilitate the continuation of her mandate.”. Misrepresenting the situation is not a valid way to address the realities we face. If the current policies are so bad and you have practical ideas that would be so much better, you wouldn’t need to spin up this kind of rhetoric.

Of course all that presumes you care about the people involved (Europeans and migrants) and aren’t just playing on all of this to support some theoretical socio-political concepts.
 
High time we stop subsidizing the liberal Eurocrats. Either defend yourselves or pony up for our defense. Our own national "welfare"...improvements and repairs to infrastructure, technological research, a collider of our own, NASA projects...all down the tube to support both liberal policies here AND abroad.

Of course you can afford to buy votes with massive socialist programs, while still having money for R&D, when someone else is paying for all your security. Especially the French and much of the holier-than-thou northern Euros, where politicians are willing to put the safety of their own nations at risk in order to stay in power (always thought Merkel was better than this), and rely on the US to protect their asses. Now Sarkozy is trying to ride the liberal kumbaya-wave for votes, talking crap about tariffs on US goods, even when it's in France's best interests to have free trade with the States. These demagogues need to stfu already.

I love talking with many of my more "liberal" business partners and acquaintances in the Netherlands. All tough talk and so opinionated about "Pax Americana", how GWB is a war criminal, how damn PROUD they are that they have idiots trying to "get him to the Hague", how the Americans are so racist and homophobic and ignorant. I especially enjoy the stammering, flustered looks, and eyes darting all over the place every time...every frigging time when I mention Putin (and the past few days on GoTo or Skype, the mere whisper of Trump has them all looking crestfallen). It always ends in "The Americans can't abandon their allies", "We democracies need to stick together", blahblahblah. LMAO.
 
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