• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Punch caught on video leaves New Jersey teen fighting for her life

Bodhisattva said:
Is that saying from the Art of Manliness? I ask because I have no idea what it means...
Click to expand...
Was the art of manliness trumps sequel book to the art of the deal?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Henrin said:
You are aware that Bruce Willis is six feet tall right? Care to tell me how that is a small man? Anyways, your only example was from the eighties, so your argument is pretty much invalid.
Click to expand...

When you compare him to the mobile mountains he fights and beats, yeah he is a little man...

You gave 'only' one example of a woman besting a bigger man after getting thrown around so you're basing your opinion on one example... and your example has no names attached- very weak to say the least... :roll:

But damn near every fight on TV or action movies follows the same script...you just want to pretend your nameless actor has tremendous influence on women and my classic Die Hard MOVIES of which there are many, is somehow 'invalid' even as it gets shown almost daily on some station somewhere in our grand and glorious Republic... :peace
 
trouble13 said:
Was the art of manliness trumps sequel book to the art of the deal?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It is a HenryChinaski classic work that is etched into the American males psyche...
 
notquiteright said:
When you compare him to the mobile mountains he fights and beats, yeah he is a little man...

You gave 'only' one example of a woman besting a bigger man after getting thrown around so you're basing your opinion on one example... and your example has no names attached- very weak to say the least... :roll:

But damn near every fight on TV or action movies follows the same script...you just want to pretend your nameless actor has tremendous influence on women and my classic Die Hard MOVIES of which there are many, is somehow 'invalid' even as it gets shown almost daily on some station somewhere in our grand and glorious Republic... :peace
Click to expand...

I don't recall that scene, but I do know that Bruce Willis wasn't known for his physical fights against opponents, but more of his run and gun approach of saving the day.
 
Mr Person said:
In short: I think he probably should face some criminal punishment as a moral matter given the apparent disparity in force/capability. Legally, I think he'll be facing some long odds if he's caught, both because I think my view is correct and because I think jurors would be improperly be influenced by the sex differential in judging whether the force used was reasonable.



Long answer:

Well, now I have to pull rank. I've done criminal defense (appeals/post-conviction mainly) for the last ten years, and it is not nearly as clear as you're saying.

If we ignore any prejudice, I'd say that from the video it looks like he used excessive force in self-defense, which in this circumstance would not allow him the full protections of that defense. If she dies, he very well could be guilty of manslaughter. He does appear to be bigger (I'd estimate by 30-40 lbs), but what is really striking is the skill he employed. He spun around, got one foot forward, and swung very quickly and forcefully while employing the whole side of his body. In other words, that looked like a boxer, at least an amateur one, knocking the crap out of someone who was being a miserable pain in the *** but not posing any real threat.

The way she simply dropped also suggests a great deal of force was used. (Though the head injury is likely from the concrete, not the punch). I would seriously question whether that much force was reasonably necessary to defend from her approach were I a juror, and would do so regardless of whether it was a he. (Though, I do grant that jurors might also improperly focus on sex in making this determination).



But, this still wouldn't be definite. He doesn't necessarily know what's going on behind him when he spins around, just that he's being pursued by someone who attacked him. He could try to say he thought she might have armed herself if she was still going to go after him (not very believable, but...). He doesn't really have much of a chance to ponder over how much force is required seeing as he spins around to see her right there.

Still, I'd say the odds do not look good for him at all. I can't be certain, but it looked to me like she was unconscious before she hit the ground. Splat.
Click to expand...

Question has anybody compared their use of force to the use of force allowed by police who are trained and they who are not as part of their defense. I don't know say look and compare what the local police forces standards of force are that on their books. I would think that would be an argument that could be used when relating to what would be excessive force is and how difficult it is in reality to determine that in the very short timeframe of defending ones self.
 
HenryChinaski said:
You may be a teacher but you still have much to learn.
Click to expand...

How so? You offer an insult. Care to back it up?

Rule One of the Art of Manliness. Back your **** up.
 
HenryChinaski said:
You may be a teacher but you still have much to learn.
Click to expand...

Everyone is old enough to know exactly what you're talking about. Like I said earlier, people have just rejected your rules and it's that simple. But if it makes you feel better as long as a woman doesn't assault me I will treat her like a lady.
 
LaylaWindu said:
I feel bad that the girl got so injured and IMO the guy is pretty dispicable for such a hardcore reaction BUT at the same time this is why you don't go around taking swings at people and hitting them. Even as a female I would have a VERY hard time if I was on a jury giving this guy more than a disorderly conduct. His conduct does not make me happy and I personally feel it's atrocious but she did swing at him first. I'm assuming they were nothign more than strangers or just met within the time frame of the gathering, a stranger swinging at you can cause a person to react or overreact. A lot of society teaches not to hit women but there are exceptions to that rule, personally I don't know if I support this one but legally I couldn't support any type of sever punishment.
Click to expand...

Same here.
There may be more to it that we don't see, but on the face, it seems like a combination of drunk, stupid, and force majeure.
I would guesstimate that the boy has been in a few fights, but has no formal training. From what we see in the video, the possibility that it is an instinctual countermove in a combination of surprise and anger is great enough, that I would not convict for it, on the basis of reasonable doubt. I would however insist on holding him responsible for leaving the scene, moreso if he did not turn himself in on discovering that the girl had sufferede serious injuries. Punishment could possibly take the form of deducting a reasonable amount of his wages for medical bills. Not enough to ruin his life, but enough to make him feel the consequences and make him reflect on his actions.
 
Cryptic said:
For me, it would depend on the totality of the circumstances.

Some witness appear to maintain that the guy was taunting her. If true, I would consider such taunts to be an aggravating circumstance.
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any laws that say taunting allows physically attack. Westboro does a great deal of taunting that doesn't make punching their members in the face legal.
 
LaylaWindu said:
I'm not aware of any laws that say taunting allows physically attack. Westboro does a great deal of taunting that doesn't make punching their members in the face legal.
Click to expand...

I am not aware of any laws that allow it either (though there was a common law based "fighting words" concept at one time). Common Law influence in the US, however, has declined a lot in recent generations.

That aside, though an attack after provocation would not be legal, it could be viewed as understandable. Thus, I would be willing to consider lesser charges for such an attacker. In the contrary, somebody who taunts other people, then seriously injures them in "self defense" is not going to want me on their jury.
 
Cryptic said:
I am not aware of any laws that allow it either (though there was a common law based "fighting words" concept at one time). Common Law influence in the US, however, has declined a lot in recent generations.

That aside, though an attack after provocation would not be legal, it could be viewed as understandable. Thus, I would be willing to consider lesser charges for such an attacker. In the contrary, somebody who taunts other people, then seriously injures them in "self defense" is not going to want me on their jury.
Click to expand...

Well I agree and disagree at the same time. Legally it can't really be cases by case it has to be pretty much established whats going on. Look at KKK rallies and West Baptist protests. Those are provocation by their very existence but if a person goes up and attacks one of them and then gets themselves knocked out legally it's still the attackers fault no mater how horrible I feel those groups are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom