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Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Oregon

Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

reinoe said:
If the government was really trying to make an example out of them then they should have treated these terrorists like the armed and dangerous thugs they are and stormed the place. If it's true that the Feds were trying to "make an example out of them" then this was a badly done misplay.
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It still boils down to the fact that the government screwed up when they filed the wrong charges. They would have convicted them on lesser charges. That's not the Bundys' fault.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

jet57 said:
Well, they're not wielding guns.
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They're being pushed off their land by people with guns (and batons, tear gas, etc) They're not being freed from stealing other peoples'.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Napoleon said:
I think a reasonable person can examine the facts of the case and reach the same conclusion as the jurors. They were charged with criminal conspiracy to prevent, by “force, intimidation, and threats,” employees of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and Bureau of Land Management from carrying out their duties. That charge has massive gaping holes in its application in this case for two reasons:

1) They occupied the facility on January 2nd - when it was closed to government business for the holidays.

2) They didn't prevent any work from being done. The employees were temporarily relocated to other facilities or worked from home and they did not interfere.

How can there be a conspiracy to prevent workers from carrying out their duties on a date/time when there were no duties to prevent and there was no attempt to interfere with their ability to carry out their duties elsewhere? The jury wasn't asked whether or not they committed any crime. They were asked to decide if they committed the crime the government charged them with - and the answer to that specific charge was/is no.
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That explanation makes some sense. Between the dozens of laws that were broken the government charged them with things that were less likely to stick. I haven't read the case, but am I to understand that they weren't even charged with criminal trespass and vandalism?
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

jet57 said:
No: the crazy right-wing gun agenda.
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Oh, you're an anti 2nd amendment nut....got it....
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Just remember, folks:

14907238_10154620798009603_6633424684587713596_n.jpg
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

haymarket said:
We are the government. Perhaps you have heard the phrase ... a government of the people, by the people and for the people?
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That is a very nice sentimental and romantic notion, but not reality.

In fact, We The People existed BEFORE 1787 when the current Constitution was written. We The People created the government to serve us. It is impossible that we created ourselves. We are NOT the government.

I agree that ours is (in theory at least) of the people, by the people and for the people, but none of those words make We The People synonymous with The Federal Government.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Thoreau72 said:
That is a very nice sentimental and romantic notion, but not reality.

In fact, We The People existed BEFORE 1787 when the current Constitution was written. We The People created the government to serve us. It is impossible that we created ourselves. We are NOT the government.
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Take your complaint up with Abe Lincoln. The "government of the people, by the people and for the people" was his line.
 
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Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

j-mac said:
Oh, you're an anti 2nd amendment nut....got it....
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And from where would you draw THAT conclusion?
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

haymarket said:
Take your complaint up with Abe Lincoln. The "government of the people, by the people and for the people" was his line.
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I have no complaints that Lincoln could address. He's dead you know.

But I have read history, and I know how things happened. In short, the white man came to the North American continent somewhere after 1492. The colonies were formed by settlers, many of whom became businessmen. In 1776 those settlers declared their independence and entered into war with the British. The settlers did form a first national government with a Continental Congress and the Articles Of Confederation. By 1787 those settlers, The People, if I may, realized the deficiencies of the government they had created and sought to modify it, but by happenstance in Philadelphia that summer, the people ended up creating the blueprint for an entirely new government. That blueprint was discussed in public, and in 1789 the blueprint was ratified by The People still living.

So tell me again how The People are the same thing as the government they created. Are you suggesting that if a group of people build a house or furniture, they become their creations? I hope not.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Governments are people, not lizards.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Thoreau72 said:
I have no complaints that Lincoln could address. He's dead you know.

But I have read history, and I know how things happened. In short, the white man came to the North American continent somewhere after 1492. The colonies were formed by settlers, many of whom became businessmen. In 1776 those settlers declared their independence and entered into war with the British. The settlers did form a first national government with a Continental Congress and the Articles Of Confederation. By 1787 those settlers, The People, if I may, realized the deficiencies of the government they had created and sought to modify it, but by happenstance in Philadelphia that summer, the people ended up creating the blueprint for an entirely new government. That blueprint was discussed in public, and in 1789 the blueprint was ratified by The People still living.

So tell me again how The People are the same thing as the government they created. Are you suggesting that if a group of people build a house or furniture, they become their creations? I hope not.
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The American people are the American government. Who else would it be?
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

haymarket said:
The American people are the American government. Who else would it be?
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It would be those persons elected to office or hired by the federal government. Can it be any simpler?

I always appreciate romantic notions, but sometimes one must become grounded.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Thoreau72 said:
It would be those persons elected to office or hired by the federal government. Can it be any simpler?

I always appreciate romantic notions, but sometimes one must become grounded.
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And who are those people and who votes for those people?
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

haymarket said:
And who are those people and who votes for those people?
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Asking silly questions is frequently an indication that one has lost the debate. The government is a separate entity from the citizens. For example George Washington and James Madison are dead and gone, along with a gazillion other US citizens over the centuries, but the government lives on, cruel, criminal and grossly disfigured.

Though ours is supposedly a government of by and for the people, there is no language anywhere claiming the government and the people are the same thing. And common sense shows otherwise.

Have a nice dreamy and romantic weekend dude. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Thoreau72 said:
Asking silly questions is frequently an indication that one has lost the debate. The government is a separate entity from the citizens. For example George Washington and James Madison are dead and gone, along with a gazillion other US citizens over the centuries, but the government lives on, cruel, criminal and grossly disfigured.

Though ours is supposedly a government of by and for the people, there is no language anywhere claiming the government and the people are the same thing. And common sense shows otherwise.

Have a nice dreamy and romantic weekend dude. :mrgreen:
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American government is composed of American people empowered and chosen through elections involving and decided by the American people.

If you think that is "silly" it then speaks volumes about your belief system and your obvious contempt for the American people acting through their established institutions.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

haymarket said:
American government is composed of American people empowered and chosen through elections involving and decided by the American people.

If you think that is "silly" it then speaks volumes about your belief system and your obvious contempt for the American people acting through their established institutions.
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You do the math, and I will accept your numbers: what is the ratio, the numbers, of those employed by the Federal Government, compared to those members of the Federal Government who have been elected to their position?
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Thoreau72 said:
You do the math, and I will accept your numbers: what is the ratio, the numbers, of those employed by the Federal Government, compared to those members of the Federal Government who have been elected to their position?
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That is beyond silly. Your little math trick in no way shape or form changes the fact that our government is composed of our own people who get there largely through the electoral process that we the people determine and is then set up and funded through our representatives that we elect and choose.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

haymarket said:
That is beyond silly. Your little math trick in no way shape or form changes the fact that our government is composed of our own people who get there largely through the electoral process that we the people determine and is then set up and funded through our representatives that we elect and choose.
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If you were interested, you could also include the number of appointed individuals to the number. The government is comprised of 1) elected individuals, 2) appointed individuals, and 3) hired individuals.

For example, I have several friends who work for the FAA. I almost went to work for the FAA but thankfully did not. People who work for the government, whether by election or appointment or hired, ARE the government. You and I are not part of the government. Perhaps your rose-colored glasses have you believing you are part of the government, but unless you receive a paycheck from the government for services rendered, you are not really part of the government.
 
Re: Jury Acquits Leaders of all Charges in Armed Standoff at Federal Reserve in Orego

Thoreau72 said:
If you were interested, you could also include the number of appointed individuals to the number. The government is comprised of 1) elected individuals, 2) appointed individuals, and 3) hired individuals.

For example, I have several friends who work for the FAA. I almost went to work for the FAA but thankfully did not. People who work for the government, whether by election or appointment or hired, ARE the government. You and I are not part of the government. Perhaps your rose-colored glasses have you believing you are part of the government, but unless you receive a paycheck from the government for services rendered, you are not really part of the government.
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And in the end it all comes back to the American people and those they elect to run their government for them.
 
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