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Video captures attacker shooting, robbing 71-year-old man watering his lawn

Celebrity said:
It is "gun violence." You don't need to sugarcoat it. I know that violence is criminal when it is murder.
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No it's not. There has never been a violent gun.
 
Celebrity said:
You think these kids killed a guy for fun, huh? What about starving because most of their family is unemployed?

About the weapons, how many people carry those, compared to the number of gun owners? Gun ownership is more prevalent, and gun training is more prevalent.
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Did you just defend what this criminal did?

The why doesn't matter in the least.
 
jimbo said:
No it's not. There has never been a violent gun.
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It shouldn't be as easy for a 12-year-old to purchase an AK47 or a Glock on his block as easily as it is an ice cream cone. The supply chains need to be stopped or slowed down.
 
Celebrity said:
You think these kids killed a guy for fun, huh? What about starving because most of their family is unemployed?

About the weapons, how many people carry those, compared to the number of gun owners? Gun ownership is more prevalent, and gun training is more prevalent.
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Then perhaps liberals should label it unemployed violence. Changing the argument from one fallacy to another does not change the argument.
 
HenryChinaski said:
I blame the criminal as well as the supplier that passed the weapon to the shooter that in all probability bought the gun legally from a shop with a record of selling weapons to straw purchasers.
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Actually we have no idea, let alone an in all probability where the punk got the gun.

From what I know of gun shops and gun shows, your in all probability is highly unlikely.
 
HenryChinaski said:
It shouldn't be as easy for a 12-year-old to purchase an AK47 or a Glock on his block as easily as it is an ice cream cone. The supply chains need to be stopped or slowed down.
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That's a different argument than the one I addressed. i.e. violent guns or gun violence.

But the supply chain starts at the corner pimp, drug, and gun dealer. The pimp, drug, gun dealer tends to get their supply from something other than legal sources.
 
jimbo said:
That's a different argument than the one I addressed. i.e. violent guns or gun violence.

But the supply chain starts at the corner pimp, drug, and gun dealer. The pimp, drug, gun dealer tends to get their supply from something other than legal sources.
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Right, there buying the guns for people who purchased them legally from gun shops across the state lines that have a track record of selling guns to straw purchasers buying the weapons to sell to gangbangers.
 
jimbo said:
Actually we have no idea, let alone an in all probability where the punk got the gun.

From what I know of gun shops and gun shows, your in all probability is highly unlikely.
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The serial numbers on the ones traced show the point of origin. A handful of problematic gun shops in Indiana, Kentucky or handful right here in the suburbs of Chicago. One shop in Riverdale Illinois sold 1500 weapons that were recovered from crimes from 2009 to 2013. You don't see something wrong there?
 
HenryChinaski said:
The serial numbers on the ones traced show the point of origin. A handful of problematic gun shops in Indiana, Kentucky or handful right here in the suburbs of Chicago. One shop in Riverdale Illinois sold 1500 weapons that were recovered from crimes from 2009 to 2013. You don't see something wrong there?
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So if this is known, why is it still happening?
 
Beaudreaux said:
No, we don't.
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Really? Vehicular = vehicle = car and Manslaughter = homicide = violence. Conclusion, Vehicular manslaughter = car violence. But then that would be a little bit more analogous to "gun deaths" because manslaughter implies that the violence was fatal. Would you prefer to call it firearm manslaughter? I'll wait while you huddle with your buddies in the face of irrefutable evidence.

Mason66 said:
Did you just defend what this criminal did?

The why doesn't matter in the least.
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Nope, but you sure would love to throw me in with that lot, wouldn't you. It's quite clear that locking up criminals has not solved the problem of gun violence. If anything, it has exacerbated it.

jimbo said:
Then perhaps liberals should label it unemployed violence. Changing the argument from one fallacy to another does not change the argument.
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  1. It's not a fallacy, but I get why you want to throw that word around willy-nilly. Logicing is hard.
  2. Yes, maybe liberals should label it unemployed violence. Maybe conservatives should have a brainstorm about how to end poverty and systemic racism.
 
Mason66 said:
So if this is known, why is it still happening?
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I'm not quite sure, lax laws? Gun sellers actually have a code of conduct in it which reads
The gun dealer commits to do all that it reasonably can to prevent dangerous people from obtaining and using firearms, including, but not limited to, doing the following:
1. Prevent sales of guns to straw purchasers or gun traffickers.
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when the majority of weapons used in crimes recovered are originating from one or two shops, they're not doing something right. There's a problem there.
 
Geeeeees!

Another "freaking gun" who demonized a young black man and made him shoot a nice old man who was watering his lawn.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Geeeeees!

Another "freaking gun" who demonized a young black man and made him shoot a nice old man who was watering his lawn.
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No, it was probably all the other people who got him all jazzed up on the American Dream. But it's not like they pulled the trigger or anything.

And, he didn't take out any student loans yet, so he's not in debt like me! Technically, he could be richer than a lot of college students.
 
HenryChinaski said:
I'm not quite sure, lax laws? Gun sellers actually have a code of conduct in it which reads when the majority of weapons used in crimes recovered are originating from one or two shops, they're not doing something right. There's a problem there.
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What I mean is, if so many have been traced back to that shop, why is it still in business?
 
Celebrity said:
No, it was probably all the other people who got him all jazzed up on the American Dream. But it's not like they pulled the trigger or anything.

And, he didn't take out any student loans yet, so he's not in debt like me! Technically, he could be richer than a lot of college students.
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There you go again excusing his actions.

Nobody is responsible for this but the guy that did it.

Poverty did not cause this.

Other people did not cause this.

Why are you defending what this guy did with excuses?
 
HenryChinaski said:
Right, there buying the guns for people who purchased them legally from gun shops across the state lines that have a track record of selling guns to straw purchasers buying the weapons to sell to gangbangers.
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Blaming a gun shop owner for doing his lawfully required duty for doing a background check on a legal buyer is totally wrong.
 
Celebrity said:
It's possible to drown in eight inches of water. What's your point?

Do you really think that we can eradicate violence or lethal force before implementing legislation regarding a weapon which is designed to kill?
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Ok, let's get real.


If you had a high powered magic wand and waved it and all the guns went poof into the ether (and that is the level of fantasy that we're talking about, if we're talking about eliminating criminal access to guns in America), EVEN IF you could do such a thing and there were no more guns, NOBODY had guns, not even governments and cops...

... violence and murder would continue and the rate probably would not even decline. It might even rise, long term, since in the absence of guns women, the elderly and the disabled are even more at the mercy of the armed thug.


We will NEVER eradicate violence or lethal force from the world. Not without removing all humans from it, or changing their nature so much that they are no longer really human.


We've been murdering each other since we figured out a big stick hits harder than a fist, and since we realized a rock is harder than someone's skull. We massacred each other by the thousands and tens of thousands when the best weapon was the spear.


It isn't going to stop anytime soon.
 
Celebrity said:
Really? Vehicular = vehicle = car and Manslaughter = homicide = violence. Conclusion, Vehicular manslaughter = car violence. But then that would be a little bit more analogous to "gun deaths" because manslaughter implies that the violence was fatal. Would you prefer to call it firearm manslaughter? I'll wait while you huddle with your buddies in the face of irrefutable evidence.



Nope, but you sure would love to throw me in with that lot, wouldn't you. It's quite clear that locking up criminals has not solved the problem of gun violence. If anything, it has exacerbated it.



  1. It's not a fallacy, but I get why you want to throw that word around willy-nilly. Logicing is hard.
  2. Yes, maybe liberals should label it unemployed violence. Maybe conservatives should have a brainstorm about how to end poverty and systemic racism.
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So you've made a gun control argument. Blamed the violence on starvation, poverty, and racism. And you've implied that conservatives haven't given much thought to the later two.

Any other liberal memes to add?

How has the liberal war on poverty worked out? How have the promises I've heard liberals make for the last 50 years work out?

Do you think economic policies that hinder growth, saddle business with stifling regulations help these communities? Do you think immigration policies preferred by liberals help these communities?

The great fallacy is that liberals actually have ideas to address the chronic problems facing these communities. Trillions of dollars have been spent, and where are we now?

Liberals need to stop assuming communities like the one in the OP are populated by second class citizens and start treating them like the equals they are.

They need jobs, they need school choice. They need to stop competing for jobs from people who aren't in the country legally.

It would be refreshing to see some liberal brainstorming along these lines, rather than more election year promises that will once again never be kept.
 
Mason66 said:
There you go again excusing his actions.

Nobody is responsible for this but the guy that did it.

Poverty did not cause this.

Other people did not cause this.

Why are you defending what this guy did with excuses?
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Nope, didn't excuse his actions. That doesn't absolve bull****ters from being bull****ters.

Goshin said:
Ok, let's get real.


If you had a high powered magic wand and waved it and all the guns went poof into the ether (and that is the level of fantasy that we're talking about, if we're talking about eliminating criminal access to guns in America), EVEN IF you could do such a thing and there were no more guns, NOBODY had guns, not even governments and cops...

... violence and murder would continue and the rate probably would not even decline. It might even rise, long term, since in the absence of guns women, the elderly and the disabled are even more at the mercy of the armed thug.


We will NEVER eradicate violence or lethal force from the world. Not without removing all humans from it, or changing their nature so much that they are no longer really human.


We've been murdering each other since we figured out a big stick hits harder than a fist, and since we realized a rock is harder than someone's skull. We massacred each other by the thousands and tens of thousands when the best weapon was the spear.


It isn't going to stop anytime soon.
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Ok, that's a little bit extreme. Obviously I don't have a high powered wand of that nature.

ocean515 said:
So you've made a gun control argument. Blamed the violence on starvation, poverty, and racism. And you've implied that conservatives haven't given much thought to the later two.

Any other liberal memes to add?

How has the liberal war on poverty worked out? How have the promises I've heard liberals make for the last 50 years work out?

Do you think economic policies that hinder growth, saddle business with stifling regulations help these communities? Do you think immigration policies preferred by liberals help these communities?

The great fallacy is that liberals actually have ideas to address the chronic problems facing these communities. Trillions of dollars have been spent, and where are we now?

Liberals need to stop assuming communities like the one in the OP are populated by second class citizens and start treating them like the equals they are.

They need jobs, they need school choice. They need to stop competing for jobs from people who aren't in the country legally.

It would be refreshing to see some liberal brainstorming along these lines, rather than more election year promises that will once again never be kept.
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Huh. I dunno, but all that stuff sounds pretty good. Not that conservativism is anything more than idealism, because that's what it looks like to me. I don't see why it's a fallacy that liberals actually have ideas, though. Liberals have addressed chronic problems in the past, but establishment politics will always preserve the establishment before solving a problem. If one has to declare war on poverty in order to preserve the establishment, then one might also be preserving the problem.
 
Celebrity said:
Nope, didn't excuse his actions. That doesn't absolve bull****ters from being bull****ters.


Ok, that's a little bit extreme. Obviously I don't have a high powered wand of that nature.



Huh. I dunno, but all that stuff sounds pretty good. Not that conservativism is anything more than idealism, because that's what it looks like to me. I don't see why it's a fallacy that liberals actually have ideas, though. Liberals have addressed chronic problems in the past, but establishment politics will always preserve the establishment before solving a problem. If one has to declare war on poverty in order to preserve the establishment, then one might also be preserving the problem.
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What ideas have liberals executed over the last 50 years that have addressed the problem? Was $3 trillion not enough? Would another $1 trillion make a difference?

As usual, I read here that the road was paved with good intentions, but politics got in the way. That's absurd.

Has politics stood in the way of all the programs that have been thrown at the problem? Has massive spending and reform regarding education solved the problem? Did affirmative action end the education and jobs challenges?

These are all liberal policies that have been enacted over the decades. Again, where are the results?

Liberal immigration policy and action to address it are estimated to cost over $100 billion dollars every year. This involves education, health care, etc., etc.. How has this benefited communities like the one in the OP?

It's about jobs. It's about education. It's about responsibility. It's about challenging people to be the best they can be, and not rewarding them for developing a life style dependent on government largess.

When will handing out other people's money be replaced by policies that allow these communities to seize their own destiny? Shutting down jobs, burdening business with meaningless hurdles and regulations will do nothing but continue to harm these communities.
 
Goshin said:
Ok, let's get real.


If you had a high powered magic wand and waved it and all the guns went poof into the ether (and that is the level of fantasy that we're talking about, if we're talking about eliminating criminal access to guns in America), EVEN IF you could do such a thing and there were no more guns, NOBODY had guns, not even governments and cops...

... violence and murder would continue and the rate probably would not even decline. It might even rise, long term, since in the absence of guns women, the elderly and the disabled are even more at the mercy of the armed thug.


We will NEVER eradicate violence or lethal force from the world. Not without removing all humans from it, or changing their nature so much that they are no longer really human.


We've been murdering each other since we figured out a big stick hits harder than a fist, and since we realized a rock is harder than someone's skull. We massacred each other by the thousands and tens of thousands when the best weapon was the spear.


It isn't going to stop anytime soon.
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The problem is that you're now talking about a high powered wand. Are you considering allowing someone to wander around with such a thing? Those wands should really only be in the hands of the government. Civilians might have access to low power wands as long as they don't have a capacity of more than one wish and a range of less than arm's reach. Civilians definitely shouldn't have semi-automatic wands or any other version of an assault wand.
 
Beaudreaux said:
First - it isn't "gun violence." It's criminal violence which is part of a culture that accepts such criminal violence and makes excuses for it by blaming everything and everyone else other than those that actually do the criminal violence as well as those that enable the criminal violence.

It's a culture problem, not a gun problem. Blaming guns for the level of violence seen this year in Chicago is an intentional and shameful misdirection to cover up and hide the real root cause - the culture of criminal violence.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws.
 
HenryChinaski said:
I blame the criminal as well as the supplier that passed the weapon to the shooter that in all probability bought the gun legally from a shop with a record of selling weapons to straw purchasers.
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How about blaming the parents for not raising these punks right and just allowing them to run wild?

No...you'd rather blame guns like a typical Liberal.
 
Roadvirus said:
How about blaming the parents for not raising these punks right and just allowing them to run wild?

No...you'd rather blame guns like a typical Liberal.
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Blame could be placed there too. But are you telling me that somebody who legally purchases a gun and then passes to a gang member who cannot buy a weapon for themselves holds no accountability when that weapons is used in a crime?
 
Celebrity said:
Another victim in Chicago was watering his lawn before getting robbed and shot.


How can we put an end to gun violence? I guess that's just treating the symptom, but it's not a cure. Even if that man was carrying $200, it would still be less expensive than the surgery.

It's been said in the past that war creates jobs. Well if there's war in the streets of Chiraq, then I think the healthcare system is getting another long-term customer. He might be stable now, but just think of what a bullet wound could do to the body of a senior citizen. It's not pretty.

Theft is not a sustainable model for business, and it's bad for society. But not all thieves rob if it's a matter of life and death, some make a career out of it. Is the justice system doing it's job? We prosecute tons of non-violent offenders, yet a career criminal's first priority is to not get caught. Otherwise, she or he wouldn't have a career. When you have teams of people competing with each other, people of different ages and creeds and so on, it's natural in the great 'melting pot.' I don't know what motivated this individual to go so far as to kill, maybe it's because he is unwell. Maybe his partner is also unwell. Maybe not. But gun control and the prison industrial complex only seem to be exacerbating the problem.


ct-man-shot-marquette-park-video-20160907


Source:
Video captures attacker shooting, robbing 71-year-old man watering his lawn - Chicago Tribune
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Yeah, teen gangs again.
 
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